Anti-war stats, military hierarchy, and masculinity – Ep 148

[00:00:00] This is Fortress On A Hill with Henry Danny Kagan, Giovanni Shiloh and Venetia.

[00:00:17] Welcome everybody to a mini episode on Fortress On A Hill.

[00:00:22] I'm doing a podcast episode for one of my writing classes.

[00:00:29] And I wanted to talk to Giovanni, our co-host about the anti-war veteran community today

[00:00:35] and what my thoughts are on what's going on.

[00:00:38] And just kind of talk about the community a little bit.

[00:00:41] So hey Giovanni how you doing?

[00:00:43] Well I'm good.

[00:00:44] I'm really good.

[00:00:48] So I just wanted to ask you, where do you think that since you worked in a bout face and

[00:00:56] you have a little more knowledge about the movement, I just wanted to ask your thoughts

[00:01:01] on where do you think things are today?

[00:01:04] How many do you think there are approximately veterans who identify as anti-war?

[00:01:11] I mean so what I was in the bout face, so I was in the bout face for about six years

[00:01:17] I was the new member coordinator.

[00:01:19] I was in staff about six years and also coordinated with new members.

[00:01:26] And I plugged in new members who tried to different older members in the area or more

[00:01:33] student members in the area.

[00:01:34] I said alright, when I first started working, I think I started working in 2015 on the staff

[00:01:41] and according to our books and numbers, they were about 40,000 people, 1000 people that

[00:01:51] were registered as members.

[00:01:53] And however not all of them were active, the 4,000 just sent us where active.

[00:02:00] Then we did a cleanup of when we sent out messages, people replied back to see how

[00:02:08] I was still interested in being active, like an org came down to think it was 2000 or

[00:02:18] 2000, there were like a few of 500 or something, those periods that cost a paid or those

[00:02:28] ones.

[00:02:29] Thanks.

[00:02:30] The fourth out, that's more than I thought.

[00:02:32] The fourth out and it's not a bad number.

[00:02:35] Yeah, but I said when we came down, when we started sending emails and showing back

[00:02:41] and asking people to reply, it was still interesting to come down to about 2000 people are still

[00:02:47] warned to connect that and still want to receive our email and being some form of shape

[00:02:54] be connected to the org.

[00:02:56] When we came down to where they were active, it was less, it was somewhere about 500 or so

[00:03:03] people that were still doing active and people that were still paying members.

[00:03:07] Nice.

[00:03:08] What would you say were the main ways that you guys would communicate?

[00:03:11] Like how would you communicate mostly in organizing stuff?

[00:03:15] Oh, so we communicated with email, social media.

[00:03:19] I know that when I was leaving, we started adopting, like text banking, text and people.

[00:03:26] I don't know.

[00:03:27] Yes, those were the forms of, you know, and there's good old fashioned, not a one call.

[00:03:33] You know, particularly people that are more active, you know, they would get, for example,

[00:03:37] when I was a, you remember coordinator right?

[00:03:42] Because my thing was to actually, as people join, you know, they'll get a phone call from

[00:03:47] me.

[00:03:48] They'll get a phone call from us then and we could sell, you know.

[00:03:52] And an email, you know, it's in the time that we received their application, etc.,

[00:03:58] and then they follow up with the phone call.

[00:04:00] They followed up with a, you remember, it's coordinating.

[00:04:05] New members of the local call, I'll give them the history of the org.

[00:04:11] The bylaws that were the culture of your game, some of the actions that were done in

[00:04:20] the past and then just wasted it, get plugged in, wasted yet.

[00:04:23] Or not.

[00:04:24] Those are the original orientation.

[00:04:25] But yes, I was, so I was the main way of connecting with the government.

[00:04:31] I could connect with other members around the area and to be able to get plugged in and

[00:04:38] don't think together.

[00:04:40] Also had a new members leadership class that I would guess, people that were in it to

[00:04:45] be new members of the organization regional area.

[00:04:49] So you stayed or whatnot.

[00:04:50] They came in and pretty much I put them in training them and I remained taking, how to keep

[00:04:56] people, you know, away-seeking people active and away-seeking.

[00:04:59] There were different campaigns and different things, you know, how to start a campaign in

[00:05:03] a new campaign in the area and how to...

[00:05:06] Now I just couldn't forget people active and the thing is that, you know, you join our

[00:05:09] organization, you join the join, the about phase because you'll something shook you

[00:05:15] or something shook you and you want to do something about it and you find an organization

[00:05:19] that's where you join, right?

[00:05:21] However, it's easy to, because at the moment you're hot, the moment you want to do something

[00:05:26] that's easy to cool down and it's really keeping you back in mind.

[00:05:31] So particularly if you join some organization that's not really doing anything, you know?

[00:05:37] So I was trying to probably get people active in their area, people involved in their

[00:05:43] area and if there wasn't any one active in their area, you know, trying to equip,

[00:05:48] in embarrassing, how to be active in the area, how to plug things into the ground, how

[00:05:52] to get connected with other orgs around the local area and it just build something, you

[00:05:56] know?

[00:05:57] Thank you.

[00:05:58] Brilliant.

[00:05:59] I wanted to switch gears a little bit just because I found some really interesting studies

[00:06:07] on masculinity in the military and masculine in the military as in, you know, talking about

[00:06:14] the ideas that we talk about, like the military spouses are, you know, being a soldier or

[00:06:22] like being in the military is seen as like a very masculine thing to do because you get

[00:06:26] to be a part of war, which is obviously like the most masculine quote unquote thing that

[00:06:33] you can be a part of.

[00:06:35] And it was interesting because I found a study that talked about it in specifically anti-war

[00:06:40] gutters, the idea of masculinity and so they kind of go through these different modes

[00:06:47] of identity that people have.

[00:06:49] You know, there's the personal identity, there's the collective identity.

[00:06:52] I'm a part of a group.

[00:06:54] There is the US identity like I'm an American and then there's the military identity.

[00:06:59] I am a part of this branch.

[00:07:01] And so the idea is that there's this idea of military masculinity and we covered it's

[00:07:10] a strong connection between war and masculinity.

[00:07:14] And in this paper, they say military masculinity is one privileged form of masculinity in the

[00:07:22] U.A.

[00:07:23] Yes, say, and many Western societies and thus a title of hegemonic masculinity.

[00:07:28] Military masculinity includes a set of beliefs, practices, and attributes that can enable

[00:07:33] individuals, men and women to claim authority on the basis of affirmative relationships

[00:07:38] with the military or military.

[00:07:40] Military masculinity, how's these?

[00:07:43] That's of ideas that you get to be a part of that reinforced that idea of what a man

[00:07:48] is.

[00:07:49] And so when you're changing your mindset from I am very throw war to now I need to I am

[00:07:57] not there can be a shift in yourself about what masculinity means to you because you're

[00:08:03] not identifying with those same parts anymore.

[00:08:06] Yeah, keep in mind that most people that want to join the military young, they still find

[00:08:09] themselves transitioning from a dollar cent to adulthood right and there's some expectations

[00:08:16] of view.

[00:08:17] And it could be very scary for people that are graduating high school really have an idea

[00:08:20] where it works to next.

[00:08:22] You know, so people have their life life like enough for them, you know, for college,

[00:08:26] about blood and that and you know my parents, you know, father on this business and I'm

[00:08:32] working on father and now they're business, so people have their life line up for them

[00:08:37] but some people don't.

[00:08:38] So people still trying to find the where they should end you know, particularly on society

[00:08:43] that we live in.

[00:08:44] We live in a very hyper individualistic society, you know, a very liberal society and that

[00:08:51] sense that we're aware of the most important, the most important being is itself right?

[00:09:00] And that's the classic liberalism is right.

[00:09:03] But that both really against the nature, against human nature because when you're a real

[00:09:07] animal we're collectively right?

[00:09:09] We've always been collective, there's species like that's where you know, since we came

[00:09:15] out right?

[00:09:16] We're always roaming in small families and band from bands to clad to try to try to

[00:09:22] make a nation right?

[00:09:24] Our society is very individualistic in a sense that it's these should be lost, these

[00:09:29] are not feel being a part of a larger group, it's kind of calling that side people want

[00:09:35] to join when they go to class, they join the fraternities of storage and or each right?

[00:09:40] They'll be part of a group.

[00:09:42] Yeah, so it's an intention.

[00:09:44] Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:45] It's a movement network.

[00:09:46] Meaning, yes, that's the thing that he was saying.

[00:09:49] That's the condition.

[00:09:50] That is the condition.

[00:09:51] That is something that's very innate and grain and you know, hardwired and the culture we

[00:09:57] live in, the individualistic culture is very contradicting how we are.

[00:10:02] So when you join the military and you join that bond relationship, you know, particularly

[00:10:06] like I spend a lot of time in an infantry right and come to the arms.

[00:10:12] So that's very bonding.

[00:10:13] I remember seeing older and CEO's you know, they love going into the field because it

[00:10:19] gives them opportunity to go away from their family.

[00:10:21] You know, you know, you're the gazing but brave from their family right?

[00:10:24] And then just say that's some of us saying reason people go hunting, you know, they go

[00:10:29] hunting with the guys, you know, because they have that, they're male bonding right?

[00:10:32] So that's what the motorist is a lot of people.

[00:10:35] Here we are of course it's that.

[00:10:37] But they also, and what kind of family you come from.

[00:10:40] They come from a very conservative family.

[00:10:42] You come from a close family, you know, where there's expectations of you as a young man

[00:10:48] you're supposed to take care of your family.

[00:10:50] You think supposed to be a good citizen.

[00:10:52] You're supposed to take care of your community.

[00:10:54] You're supposed to be honest, you're supposed to be polite to your elders etc.

[00:10:58] So they have these expectations right?

[00:11:00] Which the military, which is a military kind of reinforces and people that want to

[00:11:06] measure if I'm getting off track on what you're trying to say.

[00:11:09] But that's one of the things that it's one of the attractions that brings people to

[00:11:17] you know, to attract torsist institution or this society because it's very close to

[00:11:25] the whole society because it's a micro problem in a way as well of the largest society.

[00:11:30] The hierarchy there's clear lines, there's the expectation of you.

[00:11:36] You know what you want to do the next day?

[00:11:38] We function better when there's structures and when there's chaos.

[00:11:40] There's one thing that I'm ever saying that people like to be told what to do.

[00:11:45] And what I mean is that there's a chaotic situation.

[00:11:48] They say there is a fire in the building.

[00:11:51] People always look, people are looking for, there's two ways to react to it right?

[00:11:55] There's a fire in the building, people just running over and playing,

[00:11:57] they're running and compiling over each other right?

[00:12:00] Or there's just one person who take role, take lead or anything.

[00:12:02] People are like, alright guys, just line up, let's go down the fire stairs

[00:12:06] and we'll meet outside in the park and then people just rally up and we just line up

[00:12:11] and they go down the stairs and they're in the park and they're fine

[00:12:16] and they'll rally up and they're in the parking lot right?

[00:12:18] So there's two ways of staying at things, right?

[00:12:20] So most people respond to that type of leadership,

[00:12:25] particularly when a moment of chaos.

[00:12:27] And that's one of the things that people find,

[00:12:30] that structure that people find, track the military.

[00:12:32] Now remember what I said earlier that you broke with certain values,

[00:12:37] you don't steal, you don't cheat, you don't lie,

[00:12:38] you don't have to be a human being with some particular people.

[00:12:42] You come from a family that holds values,

[00:12:44] you know or not.

[00:12:45] Then you find yourself that you participate in an action and then you find yourself

[00:12:51] that you are lied to, that you were cheated,

[00:12:53] that you are lied to and it becomes a shock to the conscience of the person, right?

[00:12:57] And then people in the military are found particularly thinking about this war

[00:13:02] and they still go to a group war and terror,

[00:13:04] which they didn't make any sense to me,

[00:13:06] because you know, tourism is a military tactic,

[00:13:08] how can you wage war and military attack?

[00:13:11] Yeah, well if you find themselves in a situation

[00:13:14] when they feel that they were lied to,

[00:13:16] so they were taken advantage of,

[00:13:18] so their innocence was taken away.

[00:13:19] You know, they feel that they have certain sets of beliefs,

[00:13:24] you know, that your joining is institution

[00:13:27] because X, Y and Z, but now you find yourself that you are just a tool.

[00:13:31] That could be a crash to reality of not people

[00:13:34] and there's two ways to deal with it,

[00:13:36] there's two ways that I've seen people do with this,

[00:13:39] this pressure or they'll continue on with their careers.

[00:13:43] They're retired and say they're even thinking about it, right?

[00:13:45] And those people that do a lot of it

[00:13:47] and those people that are just too much of a bear

[00:13:49] and they just end up leaving the military, right?

[00:13:51] I'm talking about the community of the anti-warriks

[00:13:53] because you're still long for that sense of community.

[00:13:56] You just can't deal with the contradictions of the military,

[00:14:01] the destructiveness, you know, the humanization of others.

[00:14:04] And then within the military, you see that as well

[00:14:06] because now it's starting to one of my friends

[00:14:09] and he was a long member of Bob Face member

[00:14:13] and he was our paratroopers

[00:14:15] and we were talking about some feelings

[00:14:16] about the structure and the internal structure of the military.

[00:14:19] This kid, it was think about joining the military.

[00:14:21] We were table-empty university

[00:14:23] and then what he was saying is that he was a paratrooper

[00:14:25] and he was a second newborn.

[00:14:27] So when we join a military, right?

[00:14:30] Now you are parro this organization

[00:14:34] where you uniform uniform,

[00:14:35] rubber since authority, you know, sharpness,

[00:14:37] rubber, some type of structure

[00:14:40] or some type of discipline, you know, formatting, right?

[00:14:43] But that's the uniform represent.

[00:14:46] When you have that, you know,

[00:14:47] you feel yourself you're a higher caste of society.

[00:14:49] Now it's the you see civilians that ask,

[00:14:51] call those children, they don't know any better

[00:14:53] than Bob Lottica and they're right.

[00:14:55] And you're the protector

[00:14:57] and not you were the uniform,

[00:14:58] you kind of above, right?

[00:14:59] You're, you know, you're super student enough.

[00:15:02] But then within the military,

[00:15:03] you see the same thing because they replicate

[00:15:06] the same thing because now you're in combat arms

[00:15:08] in infantry, the infantry,

[00:15:10] see the rest of the people

[00:15:11] that are not in those combat arms,

[00:15:13] as beneath them, as we go to them,

[00:15:14] beneath them, because I'm an infantry man, right?

[00:15:16] I was a medic in the infantry

[00:15:18] and the medic you have to kind of prove yourself

[00:15:20] to the infantry guys that you can do

[00:15:22] same thing and better of them

[00:15:23] because you only know your carrying the amount

[00:15:26] of equipment that they're carrying, right?

[00:15:28] So you're participating in the role marches

[00:15:29] you're pulling guardly with them.

[00:15:32] And you know other things you gotta try prove yourself

[00:15:34] so you can get to respect from them

[00:15:35] because if not there'll see you as beneath them

[00:15:38] because you're a medic of their infantry.

[00:15:39] So then you have that cast in the military,

[00:15:42] right, you know, I'm never a German

[00:15:44] and you know, a pencil pusher in the office,

[00:15:47] right, he's beneath me, right?

[00:15:49] Then within that structure, right?

[00:15:51] Then you have the Rangers, right?

[00:15:53] For example, the Power Troopers, right?

[00:15:55] They're convoluted and then they force within

[00:15:57] the combat arms unit, right?

[00:15:58] So they see everybody as a leg with poles

[00:16:01] but they don't only better in the realm of a Ranger

[00:16:03] and I'm a Power Trooper,

[00:16:05] they said I'm a jump master,

[00:16:07] they said so, right?

[00:16:08] Then you get how to do the Special Forces community

[00:16:10] which is a little bit different

[00:16:12] because I work with both,

[00:16:13] I work with the,

[00:16:15] Rangers and Special Forces community,

[00:16:17] Rangers and to be more,

[00:16:20] you tell walk through the wall,

[00:16:21] they walk through the wall,

[00:16:22] they have to question right?

[00:16:23] The bone just keeps pounding,

[00:16:24] gets the walk, keeps pounding,

[00:16:25] gets the walk,

[00:16:26] gets the walk,

[00:16:27] gets the walk,

[00:16:27] they ask their questions right?

[00:16:28] I remember a friend he was a Special Forces guy.

[00:16:30] He was telling us different, right?

[00:16:32] And said, you know,

[00:16:33] you tell Rangers put,

[00:16:34] you know, cut the grass with scissors

[00:16:35] who got them cut the grass with scissors, right?

[00:16:38] They would make one of their,

[00:16:39] because it was in the office

[00:16:40] and it was a Ranger guy in the office,

[00:16:41] he was making one of them all the time.

[00:16:43] He was special, of course,

[00:16:44] died,

[00:16:45] it was a little bit more lark

[00:16:46] so they put my little bit and looked like it

[00:16:47] come down and all that.

[00:16:48] It was so bad that they had to grow a little bit more,

[00:16:50] you know,

[00:16:51] they're from now but they have a different,

[00:16:52] what was different mission though?

[00:16:54] They see everybody else,

[00:16:55] that's kind of beneath them

[00:16:56] because they're really forced.

[00:16:58] Do you see all those strudges

[00:16:58] of those larkies in the mud,

[00:17:00] sorry?

[00:17:01] That's helpful

[00:17:01] because yeah,

[00:17:02] you're talking about high arities

[00:17:03] and you're talking about the instruction

[00:17:05] that you involve yourself

[00:17:06] and then the,

[00:17:08] the like different compromises

[00:17:09] you have to make for yourself basically.

[00:17:11] And so,

[00:17:14] you know, when you're getting out,

[00:17:15] then you have the time to reflect

[00:17:18] on everything that you did,

[00:17:19] you know, time reflects on your feelings about it.

[00:17:23] And for me,

[00:17:24] I felt really like,

[00:17:28] I didn't come into the military

[00:17:29] being like super gung-hole like Hell yeah, America.

[00:17:32] I was very like,

[00:17:34] I understood that we'd done some stuff

[00:17:37] that wasn't great

[00:17:38] but like for me,

[00:17:39] it was because I wanted to GI though

[00:17:41] and I wanted the benefits of going back to college

[00:17:44] and stuff

[00:17:45] where I ran another article

[00:17:47] and a paper talking about identity and veterans

[00:17:50] and specifically what happens when,

[00:17:54] when you're getting out

[00:17:54] and the process of reintegration,

[00:17:57] what that looks like

[00:17:58] and how that can,

[00:17:59] how the ways that your identity shifts

[00:18:03] over the reintegration period

[00:18:05] can't lead to

[00:18:06] and other symptoms.

[00:18:07] So in this paper

[00:18:09] they talked about reintegration

[00:18:10] and so there's said

[00:18:11] the process of reintegration

[00:18:13] to civilian life

[00:18:13] has been conceptualized

[00:18:15] as a abrupt culture shock

[00:18:17] that involves

[00:18:17] launess maintenance gains

[00:18:19] and transformation

[00:18:20] of existing identity structure.

[00:18:22] Given this context,

[00:18:23] the social identity model

[00:18:25] of identity change may use

[00:18:27] it may serve as a useful framework

[00:18:28] for viewing these changes.

[00:18:30] So basically like it's a shock to your system

[00:18:33] because you're losing

[00:18:34] that identity,

[00:18:34] you're losing that brotherhood

[00:18:36] that camaraderie

[00:18:36] that identity that you had

[00:18:38] and you're turning into

[00:18:39] whoever this person is

[00:18:41] and for me I thought,

[00:18:42] oh I can just go back

[00:18:43] to being the first that I thought that's

[00:18:46] and like you can't,

[00:18:48] but it's different.

[00:18:49] I mean everything is like

[00:18:50] you're a different person.

[00:18:51] You can't go back to being that

[00:18:53] like wide eyed naive person

[00:18:55] that didn't understand

[00:18:58] all of what was going on.

[00:19:01] So and then it needs

[00:19:02] to say as such

[00:19:03] a successful transition

[00:19:04] to civilian life requires

[00:19:06] a transformational change

[00:19:08] in one's military identity

[00:19:10] and maintenance

[00:19:10] of existing identity structures.

[00:19:13] So yeah, obviously you have to

[00:19:15] you have to rethink

[00:19:17] everything that you did and why.

[00:19:20] What do you feel like was?

[00:19:22] Yeah, what's your bed

[00:19:23] or what you saw

[00:19:24] what you consciously do

[00:19:26] with a part of

[00:19:27] you know

[00:19:28] well you see no other people

[00:19:29] do in my center

[00:19:30] or one thing the military

[00:19:32] is that you always keep

[00:19:33] heronies where

[00:19:34] it's that

[00:19:35] you're a navy, right?

[00:19:36] Navy was

[00:19:37] maybe the

[00:19:38] maybe the different culture

[00:19:39] than the army

[00:19:40] but probably the same

[00:19:43] that you know

[00:19:44] you keep hearing that we rank

[00:19:45] on privilege.

[00:19:47] So it's been 12 years after

[00:19:49] doing and two years

[00:19:50] research, right?

[00:19:51] So making that transition

[00:19:53] the reason I went from

[00:19:54] active to reserve is

[00:19:55] to help me in that transition

[00:19:56] as soon as we move right

[00:19:57] and because to make sure

[00:19:59] that's what I was going to do

[00:20:00] also because they

[00:20:00] was like tables and

[00:20:01] it was on the sharks

[00:20:03] they also are for some type

[00:20:05] of bonus

[00:20:05] whatever. Yeah,

[00:20:06] those are some both

[00:20:07] to make the transition

[00:20:08] from active to reserve

[00:20:09] etc.

[00:20:11] Now, even the military

[00:20:12] had a family had children

[00:20:15] like married at home

[00:20:17] but with rank of privilege

[00:20:19] and life in the military

[00:20:20] is not really hard

[00:20:21] particularly when you start

[00:20:22] when we do ranks and stuff

[00:20:23] like that.

[00:20:24] You know your

[00:20:26] trainings paid for

[00:20:27] you know, you supply

[00:20:27] for qualified to

[00:20:29] you know, you go to school

[00:20:30] and you're just

[00:20:30] trained paid for

[00:20:32] or what T-Wap

[00:20:33] are out of the navy

[00:20:33] cause it

[00:20:34] you know when you're up

[00:20:35] in the entire

[00:20:36] schloss, you know, T-Wa

[00:20:37] and you get paid

[00:20:38] to this business

[00:20:39] and all that

[00:20:41] particularly when you start

[00:20:42] going into those higher

[00:20:43] ranks, those, you know,

[00:20:44] I'm talking about in

[00:20:45] listed here we start

[00:20:46] becoming a seven

[00:20:48] achieved for you guys

[00:20:48] called chief.

[00:20:49] So I go on to the

[00:20:52] year round,

[00:20:53] to E nine round,

[00:20:54] you know, you guys call it

[00:20:54] the senior rate,

[00:20:55] you guys call it

[00:20:56] the E nine.

[00:20:58] E nine is master

[00:20:59] master Chief Fred

[00:21:01] we got you know,

[00:21:01] we start

[00:21:03] you know, those are very

[00:21:04] high privilege

[00:21:05] positions

[00:21:06] and then when you

[00:21:07] when they leave the military

[00:21:08] and the entire

[00:21:09] it's like an emptiness

[00:21:10] particularly when you're

[00:21:11] used to

[00:21:12] learning things

[00:21:13] when you have people

[00:21:13] working for you

[00:21:14] you know,

[00:21:16] you're most

[00:21:17] from different positions

[00:21:18] you know, people like

[00:21:19] they move different

[00:21:20] positions.

[00:21:20] You really have to

[00:21:21] do your first position

[00:21:22] you gotta do it

[00:21:22] to check your

[00:21:23] breakfast

[00:21:23] which we've done in the past

[00:21:25] get selected to this school

[00:21:26] to their school

[00:21:27] and then you have

[00:21:27] this mission

[00:21:29] that atmosphere

[00:21:30] doesn't really exist

[00:21:31] in the end of the

[00:21:31] civilian world

[00:21:32] almost people right

[00:21:34] so for most people

[00:21:35] when they make that

[00:21:36] transition

[00:21:36] you have people

[00:21:37] with under you

[00:21:37] for example, that was a

[00:21:38] section chief

[00:21:39] for those in military

[00:21:40] and people have like

[00:21:40] 36 people working for me

[00:21:42] at all points

[00:21:43] you know

[00:21:43] and

[00:21:44] and that

[00:21:46] a lot of people

[00:21:47] are in transition

[00:21:48] into the civilian world

[00:21:49] so they feel lost

[00:21:50] I don't know if you heard

[00:21:51] of the stories about

[00:21:52] you know, all

[00:21:53] massachies right

[00:21:54] you know, we tried

[00:21:55] to go to the BX

[00:21:56] or the PX

[00:21:57] just to look at soldier

[00:21:57] just to bring minutes

[00:21:58] right

[00:21:59] you know

[00:21:59] because they can't really

[00:22:00] adjust to their

[00:22:01] they can't really adjust

[00:22:02] to the civilian world

[00:22:03] that's what they find

[00:22:04] that people that

[00:22:05] left the military

[00:22:06] and you know,

[00:22:08] if they take part of

[00:22:09] war and combat

[00:22:10] that left the military

[00:22:11] like two years

[00:22:12] or three years

[00:22:12] four years

[00:22:13] and they got out

[00:22:14] a fine of eight

[00:22:15] but they had an easier time

[00:22:16] to transition

[00:22:18] it's a civilian

[00:22:19] that people

[00:22:20] that they'd over 10 years

[00:22:21] and years of

[00:22:22] they got out

[00:22:22] and you kind of

[00:22:23] become institutionalized

[00:22:26] in a sense

[00:22:26] you see

[00:22:28] that civilian world

[00:22:28] doesn't work that way

[00:22:30] so you see a lot of people

[00:22:32] that spend a lot of time

[00:22:33] in the military

[00:22:33] when they retire

[00:22:34] when they get out

[00:22:35] they find

[00:22:36] they try

[00:22:36] they look for other jobs

[00:22:38] that's similar structures

[00:22:40] you know, they

[00:22:40] joined the police department

[00:22:42] they joined

[00:22:42] border patrol

[00:22:43] they joined

[00:22:44] with security

[00:22:45] firm

[00:22:46] so whatever

[00:22:46] this night

[00:22:47] they try to find

[00:22:47] it say

[00:22:48] common structures

[00:22:49] fire departments

[00:22:50] fire

[00:22:50] you know, same kind of

[00:22:51] structures

[00:22:51] of the air

[00:22:51] where it bloats

[00:22:53] that sort of slums

[00:22:54] I mean

[00:22:54] I said minus

[00:22:55] minus people

[00:22:55] that want to come out

[00:22:56] war

[00:22:57] the weapons is

[00:22:58] depending on me

[00:22:59] they have

[00:22:59] a different dynamic

[00:23:01] and now you're adding

[00:23:02] a little stress

[00:23:02] in top of it

[00:23:03] but you added PTSD

[00:23:04] you're adding

[00:23:05] moral age

[00:23:06] to it

[00:23:08] as well

[00:23:08] yeah

[00:23:09] absolutely

[00:23:12] well thank you so much

[00:23:13] for talking to me today

[00:23:15] it was nice

[00:23:16] to get a little more

[00:23:17] insight into the community

[00:23:19] and

[00:23:20] just

[00:23:20] your own personal experience

[00:23:22] of how you felt

[00:23:22] and

[00:23:24] that'll be

[00:23:25] thanks so much

[00:23:26] for talking with me today

[00:23:28] money is tight these days

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[00:24:46] skepticism

[00:24:47] is one's best armor

[00:24:49] never forget it

[00:24:50] we'll see you next time

[00:24:59] and

[00:25:00] listen to my song

[00:25:05] i hope

[00:25:07] you pay attention

[00:25:11] i will not

[00:25:12] detain you long