Jovanni sits down with independent journalist Olesya Orlenko, a Russian historian, who provides on-the-ground perspectives from Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. They discuss the roots of the conflict tracing back to the 2014 coup in Ukraine, the role of Western media in shaping narratives, and the views from both Russian and Ukrainian sides.
Olesya Orlenko is a Russian historian, researcher, and reporter. She studied at the Institute of Russian and Archive in Russia, History Archive Russia, and at the National Charter School in France. Her interest includes World War II, Nazi genocide and extermination policy, history of the far right movement, and theories in France.
Since 2014, Melissa has been closely following events in the Donbass province and has traveled to the war zone several times to gather facts of crimes committed by the Ukrainian army [00:03:00] against the inhabitants of the UNESCO and Lugansk regions. She became a journalist in 2016 and has been reporting on such facts since.
Olesya is an author, documentarian, and founder of the Russian Society of Friends of L’Humanité, a French left wing newspaper.
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This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Kaygan, Jo
Don:vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha
Jovanni:Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign
Jovanni:policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war..
Jovanni:I'm Jovanni.
Jovanni:Thank you for being with us today.
Jovanni:Most Americans will remember the war happening in Eastern Europe starting
Jovanni:on February 24, 2022, when Russian President Vladimir Putin announced
Jovanni:the special military operations and the intervention in Ukraine.
Jovanni:Back then, there was an uproar in Western society and Western
Jovanni:media went into hysteria.
Jovanni:Huge condemnations from NATO countries and their close allies.
Jovanni:It was described as a grievance of crimes, the worst.
Jovanni:This was naked Russian aggression not seen in Europe since the Second World War.
Jovanni:Forgetting that, two decades earlier, Nader set the former Yugoslavia on fire,
Jovanni:causing the dismemberment of the country, and that they themselves have been waging
Jovanni:war and bombing multiple Muslim majority countries for the last two decades.
Jovanni:There was a new Hitler in Europe, and his name was Vladimir
Jovanni:Putin, was the Western outcry.
Jovanni:All of a sudden, everything in Russia, everything Russian
Jovanni:was cancelled in the West.
Jovanni:Russophobia was at its highest.
Jovanni:Now, if you remember the war starting two years ago, that's because the U.
Jovanni:S.
Jovanni:and Western media, let's call it the NATO media, has been sure to keep you
Jovanni:thinking this war started two years ago out of a vacuum with no context.
Jovanni:The way the media constructed the narrative is that Ukraine was minding its
Jovanni:own business and peace when Putin all of a sudden decided to invade just for funsies.
Jovanni:Most Americans would be unaware.
Jovanni:The Kiev had already been at war for the last nine years against its Russian
Jovanni:speaking population in the eastern region called the Donbass and against other
Jovanni:Ukro Russian inhabitants in the area.
Jovanni:The catalyst for this war was the CIA NATO 2014 engineered coup in Kiev
Jovanni:which used the Euromaidan protests as a cover to facilitate the seizure of
Jovanni:power by ultra right wing and neo Nazi elements and militias such as the Right
Jovanni:Sector and other bandit right factions.
Jovanni:Here to tell us more, I'm honored to introduce our guest.
Jovanni:All the way from Moscow is Olesya Orlenko.
Jovanni:Olesya is a Russian historian, researcher, and reporter.
Jovanni:She studied at the Institute of Russian and Archive in Russia,
Jovanni:History Archive Russia, and at the National Charter School in France.
Jovanni:Her interest includes World War II, Nazi genocide and extermination
Jovanni:policy, history of the far right movement, and theories in France.
Jovanni:Since 2014, Melissa has been closely following events in the Donbass
Jovanni:province and has traveled to the war zone several times to gather facts
Jovanni:of crimes committed by the Ukrainian army against the inhabitants of
Jovanni:the UNESCO and Lugansk regions.
Jovanni:She became a journalist in 2016 and has been reporting on such facts since.
Jovanni:Olesya is an author, documentarian, and founder of the Russian
Jovanni:Society of Friends of L'Humanité, a French left wing newspaper.
Jovanni:Welcome to the show, Olesya.
Olesya Orlenko:Hello, thank you.
Olesya Orlenko:Thank you for inviting me.
Jovanni:Olesya please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from,
Jovanni:and what brought you to your interests.
Olesya Orlenko:Firstly, as you, as you have already mentioned, I was
Olesya Orlenko:working as historian and, I think I'm telling this story all the time
Olesya Orlenko:when I'm speaking about the Donbas.
Olesya Orlenko:The events that happen now, for me, they are directly related with my interest
Olesya Orlenko:and my occupation as a historian.
Olesya Orlenko:I was working in different historical research projects, and one of them, which
Olesya Orlenko:was very interesting, lasted many years.
Olesya Orlenko:I was collecting the memories.
Olesya Orlenko:I was recording the eyewitnesses of Nazi genocide, uh, in, uh, Soviet Russia,
Olesya Orlenko:Soviet Belorussia, Soviet Latvia, people who are still living there.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, it was, uh, the special, uh, area of Nazi extermination policy where,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, many villages were entirely destroyed and the population, killed
Olesya Orlenko:or, sent to the concentration camps.
Olesya Orlenko:And as it was, uh, twenty nine, twenty ten, twenty eleven, two thousand nine,
Olesya Orlenko:two thousand ten, two thousand eleven years, so it was Long time ago, we
Olesya Orlenko:could still find, uh, those who were children at the time, of World War ii.
Olesya Orlenko:People who, uh, had 10 years, nine years, um, at this time.
Olesya Orlenko:And, uh, we made, uh, quite interesting work with a lot of recordings.
Olesya Orlenko:Many, uh.
Olesya Orlenko:Thousands of, uh, interviews, of course, I wasn't alone.
Olesya Orlenko:I was with my colleagues and, uh, uh, we're, uh, spending all summer
Olesya Orlenko:actually in, in those area, uh, by traveling village to village.
Olesya Orlenko:So very interesting work, very rich and, uh, very important, I think.
Olesya Orlenko:When in 2014, uh, all this, those, those Maidan story and,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, the war in Donbass began?
Olesya Orlenko:I recognized when I was following the news and when I was speaking with the
Olesya Orlenko:people who lives there, people I know who lives in Donetsk, what they were
Olesya Orlenko:talking, how they were describing what happens, I really recognized, I've
Olesya Orlenko:had a really deja vu, uh, feeling.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I heard this before from different persons and about different time.
Olesya Orlenko:But for me, it was so obviously that history repeating.
Olesya Orlenko:And I started to do the same thing that I done some years ago.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I started to Record the information about what happens.
Olesya Orlenko:So, making a list of facts.
Olesya Orlenko:And me and some colleagues of mine, uh, we start, we started doing this work.
Olesya Orlenko:Well, it was like, just for ourselves, it wasn't the institution or something.
Olesya Orlenko:So, we just made, started to make this, and then we We created the Facebook
Olesya Orlenko:page, but of course it's not an official organization, just a Facebook page for
Olesya Orlenko:fix and to make reposts of some news.
Olesya Orlenko:It will disappear.
Olesya Orlenko:They're passing away, they're passing away all the time.
Olesya Orlenko:Actually, in 2014, we were hoping that it'll stop that, we haven't had
Olesya Orlenko:an idea that it will last for years, all this war and this confrontation.
Olesya Orlenko:We decided to proceed with our, with our work.
Olesya Orlenko:We started to find other people who could help us.
Olesya Orlenko:We started to find other people in Donetsk.
Olesya Orlenko:As I told you, I, uh, I've been in Donetsk in Soviet time as a child.
Olesya Orlenko:And I know people there, from there.
Olesya Orlenko:I know people who are the age of my parents, and, they
Olesya Orlenko:had their children as well.
Olesya Orlenko:Some of them evacuated just at the beginning of the war
Olesya Orlenko:because it was very violent.
Olesya Orlenko:But some of them stayed there, so I could really, uh, get the
Olesya Orlenko:information directly from the place.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and as everything evaluated in the bad sense of this word, I'm still
Olesya Orlenko:there, I'm still doing this kind of job, I'm still doing this kind of work,
Olesya Orlenko:but of course we now have our team.
Olesya Orlenko:Because since 2014 some of my colleagues went away because it's
Olesya Orlenko:quite a pacifical occupation.
Olesya Orlenko:And actually these, those events bring me to the journalism.
Olesya Orlenko:Because I, I wanted to find the journalists from the, uh, other countries
Olesya Orlenko:who share my views, my opinions.
Olesya Orlenko:And I found them, actually.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, 2014, uh, 16, I found them.
Olesya Orlenko:And I was optimist at the time.
Olesya Orlenko:I was optimist.
Olesya Orlenko:I thought that, uh, really sort of mobilization.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I mean, social, uh, activist mobilization would really, uh, contribute
Olesya Orlenko:to change, uh, things to better.
Olesya Orlenko:But, unfortunately, it wasn't and now, after the beginning of special
Olesya Orlenko:operation, I'm going myself to, to the place and even, even, uh, the special
Olesya Orlenko:operation, I, I spent, I, I was in Donetsk when special operation began.
Olesya Orlenko:I was with the French journalist there.
Olesya Orlenko:Of course, I didn't know that, uh, everything, uh, going to happen,
Olesya Orlenko:but, uh, I've seen how it was.
Olesya Orlenko:I came there in Donetsk to follow the mobilization because if you remember
Olesya Orlenko:in the beginning of February, there was a big mobilization and at the same
Olesya Orlenko:evacuation of civilians, because, all this tension in the border on the front line.
Olesya Orlenko:It was violated, the front line and the agreement of stop fire.
Olesya Orlenko:I don't know how to say it, but it was violated many times.
Olesya Orlenko:So, uh, I think it was in the air that, uh, something will, will happen.
Olesya Orlenko:And because of that the ceasefire.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and it was violated, and it was in the air that something happened.
Olesya Orlenko:But of course we didn't expect to be at the middle of all those events.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and since then I came, uh, several times.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, in Donetsk, but, uh, what I insist in my work is, uh,
Olesya Orlenko:always to record the civilians.
Olesya Orlenko:I'm not covering the, um, war, uh, events and I'm not covering the military issues.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, what I'm doing is I'm always coming to people, uh, who are always
Olesya Orlenko:victims, actually all the time and from both sides, victims are civilians.
Olesya Orlenko:And I'm talking with them, uh, and that's what I'm doing.
Olesya Orlenko:I'm standing always at the same position as I was in 2014.
Olesya Orlenko:So, in, from, from this point of view My views didn't change, so I'm always
Olesya Orlenko:thinking what I thought 10 years and it's horrible, really sounds horrible.
Olesya Orlenko:And that's what I continue to do, even when everything will stop,
Olesya Orlenko:because in this, because the crimes against civilians, it's always.
Olesya Orlenko:Very vulnerable topic, uh, and one of the most important for society,
Olesya Orlenko:all the time, no matter how much time passed from the events.
Olesya Orlenko:And the proof is that even now, the, uh, uh, the events of Second World War,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, are still harmful for some people.
Olesya Orlenko:For historical memory, for social memory, and, uh, you can say the same
Olesya Orlenko:thing from no matter which country.
Jovanni:So you said you chronicle and the, um, what the civilians,
Jovanni:uh, has been, uh, uh, experiencing.
Jovanni:And, uh, you write about that and you, uh, discuss and you talked about the
Jovanni:civilians and you, um, got there in 2014.
Jovanni:Uh, and you've been to Dunes and Luhan area since the, uh, specialty operation.
Jovanni:Can you, can you describe what the civilians were telling you back then
Jovanni:and what they're telling you now?
Jovanni:If anything has changed, if it's the same, if it's gotten better?
Olesya Orlenko:Well, uh, it's, it's actually, yes, uh, they, they have changed
Olesya Orlenko:their views, of course, but I mean, uh, I'll explain to you why I'm saying this.
Olesya Orlenko:Um.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I think that everybody now, uh, in media and it's very present is this,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, uh, this, uh, uh, rhetoric that, uh, East Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine is
Olesya Orlenko:pro Russian, it's more, uh, uh, Russian speakers and, uh, uh, the, the area
Olesya Orlenko:with, uh, with a special, uh, history connected very much with, uh, Russia
Olesya Orlenko:since, uh, Uh, centuries and the, uh, uh, Western Ukrainian and contrary,
Olesya Orlenko:it's like, you know, uh, uh, more, the language is, uh, more similar with
Olesya Orlenko:Polish language and, uh, the territory were, in Poland during many years.
Olesya Orlenko:I can tell you that Donetsk, well, in my, uh, opinion, as I remember this
Olesya Orlenko:in Soviet time, and as I know it now, perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm telling
Olesya Orlenko:you my, uh, view of this region.
Olesya Orlenko:It's absolutely a double speaking region.
Olesya Orlenko:Even between my friends.
Olesya Orlenko:I, I can tell you that even they speak if they speak Russian in bilingual.
Olesya Orlenko:Yeah, they are bilingual.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and if they speak Russian, uh, uh, in their family, they are absolutely.
Olesya Orlenko:capable to speak Ukrainian.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I can tell you more.
Olesya Orlenko:I can tell you that, uh, some of my friends and my comrades, uh, uh,
Olesya Orlenko:who came in Donetsk or in region, uh, in the families came there,
Olesya Orlenko:living there since 19th century.
Olesya Orlenko:They were, uh, Learning at Ukrainian schools, but they speak perfectly
Olesya Orlenko:Russian without any accent, you know, so a lot, a lot of people
Olesya Orlenko:there, uh, are, uh, bilingual.
Olesya Orlenko:And, uh, I'm not saying of course, it's even in the cities and, and I, I'm not
Olesya Orlenko:saying, I'm not saying in villages because if you come in village, of course you
Olesya Orlenko:will see, you will hear all this mix of Russian, Ukrainian, uh, and very, very
Olesya Orlenko:different, uh, languages and uh hmm.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, special vocabulary, which you cannot find anywhere else.
Olesya Orlenko:So it's very, very interesting from this point of view, from a sociological
Olesya Orlenko:and ethnological point of view.
Olesya Orlenko:But This confrontation.
Olesya Orlenko:So I cannot say tell you that in two, 2014, and people, I'm, and I'm asking
Olesya Orlenko:them why they, for example, were in anti Maidan, uh, in 2014 in esque, uh,
Olesya Orlenko:they won't tell you that we are not want, we don't want to be in Ukraine,
Olesya Orlenko:or we don't want to speak Ukrainian.
Olesya Orlenko:No.
Olesya Orlenko:They are speaking Ukrainian.
Olesya Orlenko:The problem is the, the, uh, the issue is always, uh, political choice, as
Olesya Orlenko:people understand, because, you know, the political choice is when you say
Olesya Orlenko:this, you should understand that the politician who will sign the agreements
Olesya Orlenko:or, who will talk with the, uh, leaders of other country and the The person who
Olesya Orlenko:lives in Donetsk going to work at the, uh, I don't know, at the factory or,
Olesya Orlenko:no matter, or who lives in a village.
Olesya Orlenko:They have the different understanding of this political choice.
Olesya Orlenko:How it was explained to these people because, that's always
Olesya Orlenko:the matter of the state.
Olesya Orlenko:To keep the country together, you really need to make all citizens to understand
Olesya Orlenko:that they are citizens of this country.
Olesya Orlenko:And I think that 2014 is a big failure of the Ukrainian state.
Olesya Orlenko:I mean, this failure didn't occur in 2014 because it's the consequence
Olesya Orlenko:of the previous evolution.
Olesya Orlenko:In 2014, it was the sign that the Ukrainian state made a big mistake
Olesya Orlenko:before, and it's not capable to keep the country together.
Olesya Orlenko:If you hear what people were saying in 2014, the problem is not
Olesya Orlenko:what they were thinking about the Kiev war, about the government.
Olesya Orlenko:But when people saw that there is an army People from Donetsk or, I don't
Olesya Orlenko:know, in Slavyansk, for example, that people from Slavyansk, when they saw
Olesya Orlenko:that the army, the citizens of the same country, they speak in the same
Olesya Orlenko:language, uh, when they come to shoot them, when the first blood started
Olesya Orlenko:to appear and the civil war started.
Olesya Orlenko:Was operated in Kyiv.
Olesya Orlenko:' cause Kyiv made a choice to keep the country together.
Olesya Orlenko:The government made the choice to start the Civil War.
Olesya Orlenko:So this choice, made a really split between.
Olesya Orlenko:Between Ukraine and people from Donbas and, Logan areas, territories, uh, they,
Olesya Orlenko:they, they started the split, started there from there, from the Civil War.
Olesya Orlenko:And 2014 I really heard, voices.
Olesya Orlenko:That we need to stop it, we need to stop fire, we need
Olesya Orlenko:really to find another solution.
Olesya Orlenko:In 2022, when I came there, the discourse has absolutely changed.
Olesya Orlenko:In this case, the discourse of people, when you go to the magazine,
Olesya Orlenko:to the street and they stop people.
Olesya Orlenko:When I talked to them, they, they are saying that I don't want to be
Olesya Orlenko:And Many friends of mine say that Ukraine killed Ukrainian in me, so I
Olesya Orlenko:don't want, I cannot be in this state, so their political choice, uh, were
Olesya Orlenko:determined by the policy of Kiev.
Olesya Orlenko:That's what they say, that's why, that's why when it was the
Olesya Orlenko:referendum, our colleagues followed really very much this referendum.
Olesya Orlenko:I think this referendum Uh, about the self determination and about to enter
Olesya Orlenko:in Russian, uh, in Russia, to enter in Russia in September, uh, of 2022.
Olesya Orlenko:I think it was really fair, it maybe it sounds for those who listen to
Olesya Orlenko:us, uh, unacceptable, but it's really fair because I Met all the time.
Olesya Orlenko:I haven't ever met in, in, in my displacement in, in Luhansk
Olesya Orlenko:I haven't ever met, someone who can say that, no, I don't agree.
Olesya Orlenko:I don't want to be in Russia.
Olesya Orlenko:So all of them were dreaming about Russia because they had their reasons.
Olesya Orlenko:People was thinking that it'll resolve.
Olesya Orlenko:The problem and they, uh, help them, uh, in their situation.
Olesya Orlenko:They were during eight years in a very, in, in a humanitarian catastrophic,
Olesya Orlenko:and of course, only, solution they seen, the russian choice.
Olesya Orlenko:So.
Olesya Orlenko:I think that instead of resolving the problem, the Ukrainian government
Olesya Orlenko:choice to make, things worse.
Olesya Orlenko:And, as well the big failure of the Ukraine.
Olesya Orlenko:Many people I know in 2014 15, uh, they were trying to
Olesya Orlenko:leave the, area of combatants.
Olesya Orlenko:And they, uh, they, they wanted to evacuate it somewhere.
Olesya Orlenko:And, uh, many of them choose Ukraine.
Olesya Orlenko:They moved to Ukraine, I mean to the central or east Ukraine to
Olesya Orlenko:avoid the danger and they came back because they were accepted.
Olesya Orlenko:Where with the, the, they, they didn't fail themselves as in their country.
Olesya Orlenko:They felt better In Crimea or, or in Rosol, uh, region or in Russia?
Olesya Orlenko:Many of them left the central and eastern Ukraine and moved back, in the East.
Olesya Orlenko:, of course they are they are people who, uh, evacuated and who made
Olesya Orlenko:the choice to stay in Ukraine.
Olesya Orlenko:I keep in contact with some of them.
Olesya Orlenko:And I'm keeping in contact with my Ukrainian friends and,
Olesya Orlenko:comrades who are still in Ukraine.
Olesya Orlenko:But their situation is , very complicated.
Olesya Orlenko:Some of them, uh, stayed in Ukraine because they couldn't leave.
Olesya Orlenko:Now they are hiding from the mobilization.
Olesya Orlenko:Anyway, the situation, is very hard, as they describe it.
Olesya Orlenko:And some of my friends are now in Ukrainians, Ukrainian prisons,
Olesya Orlenko:and with some of them we really I can hardly communicate because
Olesya Orlenko:two years now, they are in prison.
Jovanni:So know that, um, in 2014, after the coup, um, the, the The anti
Jovanni:Russian sentiments, right, really intensified in Western Ukraine.
Jovanni:Um, you started seeing, um, attacks against the Russian identity in Ukraine.
Jovanni:You started seeing, people, politicians, political parties being, um, cancelled
Jovanni:or prohibited because they were thought to be too close to Russia.
Jovanni:Uh, the Russian Orthodox Church was shut down.
Jovanni:, there were ban on books on Russian language.
Jovanni:You saw trade unionists in Odessa, for example, they barricaded
Jovanni:themselves in their office building and a mob, an anti Russian mob,
Jovanni:pretty much, um, set the building on fire and killing all 80 of them.
Jovanni:Um, Crimea rapidly conducted a referendum with the majority voting to
Jovanni:secede from Ukraine and join Russia.
Jovanni:Russia conceded and annexed the peninsula.
Jovanni:The people of Donbass did the same.
Jovanni:However, Russia did not annex them.
Jovanni:What do you think, what do you think that, uh, that happened?
Olesya Orlenko:Those anti-Russian anti-Russian anti-Russian, uh,
Olesya Orlenko:sentiments in, uh, Western Ukraine.
Olesya Orlenko:You know, I faced them, uh, even, uh, when I was a child.
Olesya Orlenko:It's not something that appeared 10 years ago.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I, uh, was born in, uh, 1981 and my family, uh, was half Ukrainian.
Olesya Orlenko:And you can see my name and my, uh, family name are Ukrainians and my grandfather.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, was from, uh, the Western Ukraine and, uh, so I can tell you that,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, he was born in Poland because it was at the moment when he was
Olesya Orlenko:born it was, uh, Polish territory.
Olesya Orlenko:And I can tell you that in this part of my family, the nationalism was very strong.
Olesya Orlenko:And in Soviet time, especially in Moscow, you know, and he was military, and it
Olesya Orlenko:wasn't exposed too much, you know, it wasn't the topic of family conversation.
Olesya Orlenko:But I really, I do remember, uh, the anti Semitic nationalist, speech phrases I
Olesya Orlenko:didn't make any attention to this, but I remember that it was really the reason,
Olesya Orlenko:um, the reason of the confrontation with my mother and father sometimes.
Olesya Orlenko:Um, although they were, uh, uh, young as well.
Olesya Orlenko:What I'm saying the, people like the, the extremists, the nationalists, the
Olesya Orlenko:radicals, they are existing in, uh, all country and, uh, uh, all the time.
Olesya Orlenko:How influenced they become in the country.
Olesya Orlenko:So it's like criminals, they can say that in a way.
Olesya Orlenko:Everywhere where there is a human society, there are deviations and there will be
Olesya Orlenko:criminals or, I don't know, fake people.
Olesya Orlenko:But if you, the question is if you allow them to make decisions, if you
Olesya Orlenko:allow them to influence the others.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I'm not thinking that West Ukraine is completely anti Russian, they are only a
Olesya Orlenko:racist who lives there and now it's not.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I was in Lviv, I was, uh, in Western Ukraine and I've seen.
Olesya Orlenko:Of course, I've seen both.
Olesya Orlenko:I've seen, uh, the, really, the racist, but at the same time, I've seen very
Olesya Orlenko:intelligent, smart people, uh, and I don't know how they're living now, because,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, they are afraid to contact someone, uh, in Russia, it was, uh, Since the
Olesya Orlenko:beginning of the, of the war, uh, since, uh, 2014, they stopped contact with me.
Olesya Orlenko:The problem is the minority of this radical minority.
Olesya Orlenko:They are now access there to education, they can influence the society, they
Olesya Orlenko:have all freedom to express their ideas,
Olesya Orlenko:the opportunities to express the opposite opinion are very, very, very wide.
Olesya Orlenko:It's not natural conflict, there were a lot of possibility, opportunities to
Olesya Orlenko:avoid this conflict, to resolve it then.
Olesya Orlenko:And even when the special operation began, there was still time, while we
Olesya Orlenko:could, I mean, people from the society.
Olesya Orlenko:The international community could really introduce an influence to stop
Olesya Orlenko:the violence, but we are observing, I'm observing since 2014, even earlier,
Olesya Orlenko:but let's take 2014, when I'm The one opportunity after another is lost
Olesya Orlenko:when one red line crossed, another one extended and then crossed again.
Olesya Orlenko:So now I can, now the reality, I remember that two years ago, I was
Olesya Orlenko:reading the articles and the political say, it was saying from France, from
Olesya Orlenko:US, from, was saying that no, this is a red line, uh, we couldn't cross it.
Olesya Orlenko:But now, look, two years, have passed and we've seen that all red lines, of
Olesya Orlenko:two years ago, now they are passed away.
Olesya Orlenko:What else?
Olesya Orlenko:What we're doing?
Olesya Orlenko:What we're doing again?
Olesya Orlenko:So, is there any real red line which we cannot cross?
Olesya Orlenko:If we're talking about Crimea, it was very, uh, interesting particular region,
Olesya Orlenko:but it was very from strategical point of view, very, very important for Russia.
Olesya Orlenko:I think that this conflict, uh, when I'm talking about the Ukraine, but of
Olesya Orlenko:course, Uh, the, the relations in the post Soviet space, depended as well from
Olesya Orlenko:Russia and for Russia it is important.
Olesya Orlenko:The failure as well since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Olesya Orlenko:One failure for after another for, for Russia.
Olesya Orlenko:Everything started from the war.
Olesya Orlenko:It's just, uh, if you see Sochi, uh, and it was, it's just,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, very, very new to Sochi.
Olesya Orlenko:You, you, you take two hours maximum for to go there, uh, by train.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and I, I, I visited, uh, Apia as a journalist as well.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, I've seen.
Olesya Orlenko:It's really a disaster.
Olesya Orlenko:It's a disaster.
Olesya Orlenko:It's an absolutely abandoned, very, very rich region.
Olesya Orlenko:But I've seen those, the entire city, the ghost city, you know, the entire city.
Olesya Orlenko:You could see the buildings.
Olesya Orlenko:You can also see the traces of the war who ended.
Olesya Orlenko:30 years ago, you still can see the, uh, the traces of fires,
Olesya Orlenko:of destroyed buildings, and the city, the whole city is abandoned.
Olesya Orlenko:It's, uh, hallucinating, it's amazing, I mean, in a bad sense of this word.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, even there, about, I've seen that about 9 or 10 persons still
Olesya Orlenko:live there, of course, the old ones.
Olesya Orlenko:I really, uh Of course it, uh, it wasn't the first war, but I mean,
Olesya Orlenko:for the first war, for after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Olesya Orlenko:And then you can see two wars in Chechnya, it was really a civil war
Olesya Orlenko:caused by the policy of Russia, but, uh, uh, as well because of the failure
Olesya Orlenko:of, political failure of Russia, political failure of government.
Olesya Orlenko:Actually, that's why I don't know, I don't know, uh, if it is, uh, if I'm discovering
Olesya Orlenko:something for your audience, but one of the reason of popularity of Putin, because
Olesya Orlenko:he came and he was the, the only person who could stop this conflict in Chechnya.
Olesya Orlenko:And it was his first political success and it was really, uh, it brought
Olesya Orlenko:him really a lot of electoral voices and a lot of popularity in Russia.
Olesya Orlenko:Because, uh, before we were thinking that this war is unstoppable,
Olesya Orlenko:it's impossible to stop.
Olesya Orlenko:As they are telling now about the war in Ukraine, you know, I was in Chechnya, just
Olesya Orlenko:a small visit of three days, I've seen Grozny, I remember because I was learning
Olesya Orlenko:at the school and then you University.
Olesya Orlenko:I remember after the bombing.
Olesya Orlenko:It was like, the city was, uh, complete, almost, completely raised grossly.
Olesya Orlenko:But now if you go there, you cannot find any, uh, traces of, of the war.
Olesya Orlenko:It's absolutely new, but.
Olesya Orlenko:You come there, you won't say how it looked like.
Jovanni:You mentioned about Chechnya and people thinking that Chechnya was going to
Jovanni:be an indefinite war that would never end.
Jovanni:Do you, is that the sentiment in Russia right now with the Ukrainian
Jovanni:war that it would never end?
Olesya Orlenko:Well, not in Russia.
Olesya Orlenko:I think that in Russia, the perception of, of what happens of special operations,
Olesya Orlenko:the perception of what happens in Donetsk, it's absolutely different.
Olesya Orlenko:It's quite different.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, in Donetsk and in Moscow.
Olesya Orlenko:When you are in Moscow, you really, uh, you will see the, the, the, the
Olesya Orlenko:city of, uh, peaceful city, uh, people living, uh, uh, there are a lot of
Olesya Orlenko:distractions, uh, going to restaurants, uh, celebrating, uh, et cetera, et cetera.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, of course, in Donetsk, it's different.
Olesya Orlenko:And, uh, uh, that's why when people from Donetsk come in Moscow, they say
Olesya Orlenko:that we have an impression that we are, well, that it's really, that it's
Olesya Orlenko:not real what happens there back home.
Olesya Orlenko:Yeah, but, you know, of course, there is a sort of depression in many regions of
Olesya Orlenko:Donetsk, uh, for, uh, To be, to look at the future, people need this stability and
Olesya Orlenko:when, for example, Donetsk, the bombing of Donetsk never stopped since 2014.
Olesya Orlenko:Never stopped.
Olesya Orlenko:Every day.
Olesya Orlenko:I mean, of course, the damage was different, but every day
Olesya Orlenko:they were bombing Donetsk.
Olesya Orlenko:Not a single day stopped.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and that's why, for example, in the city, they, uh, are no,
Olesya Orlenko:they new buildings, don't they, they don't construction new
Olesya Orlenko:buildings, new apartments, or because they could be destroyed.
Olesya Orlenko:Nobody want to start the construction there.
Olesya Orlenko:But for example, in Mariupol, I was in Mariupol, uh, when it was just.
Olesya Orlenko:when the, the Ukrainians went away, even I was even there when, still
Olesya Orlenko:as of style, uh, uh, were fighting.
Olesya Orlenko:It was just at the moment where it was, coming to the end.
Olesya Orlenko:But I've seen the city, I've seen this road.
Olesya Orlenko:I, I've seen everything that could be in the cities, in this state,
Olesya Orlenko:and when I came my last time and I came there, it has changed.
Olesya Orlenko:Even if there are a lot of buildings destroyed and you could still
Olesya Orlenko:see the traces of destruction, but still see the changes.
Olesya Orlenko:And I can tell you that, It influenced the population.
Olesya Orlenko:I don't know, I mean, I'm not saying that people forgot everything
Olesya Orlenko:and now they are happy there.
Olesya Orlenko:Of course, this period, it was very, it was a real catastrophe.
Olesya Orlenko:When people see the changes for better, uh, it's, it's really influence.
Olesya Orlenko:But in Donetsk, for example, they don't see these changes.
Olesya Orlenko:I mean, they see a lot of changes, political changes, I mean.
Olesya Orlenko:And, of course, the situation, uh, changed in the matter of
Olesya Orlenko:that the Now they can earn money.
Olesya Orlenko:They can work and get their salary.
Olesya Orlenko:They can get the, uh, payment for retreatment for the, the pension or,
Olesya Orlenko:the infrastructure started to work, so it's the reality, but still for them,
Olesya Orlenko:of course, the changement will be when the violence and the combats will stop.
Olesya Orlenko:And that is what they're waiting for.
Olesya Orlenko:And I can tell you that a lot of them are really tired of this situation because
Olesya Orlenko:10 years, imagine, 10 years and this.
Jovanni:Situation.
Jovanni:Hopefully, hopefully end soon.
Jovanni:Recently, here in the United States, um, like I mentioned earlier, the, the years
Jovanni:prior to 2022, uh, didn't exist, right?
Jovanni:Everything happened in a vacuum.
Jovanni:Since 2022, Washington has poured billions, hundreds of billions
Jovanni:of dollars into this war.
Jovanni:The European Union, Germany.
Jovanni:Et cetera, right, to keep it going.
Jovanni:Recently there was a bill, there's a bill going on right now.
Jovanni:That the Democrats here wants to push political division here in the
Jovanni:United States with the Republicans wanting to defund the war in Ukraine.
Jovanni:And they'd rather fund more the war in Israel, they'd rather fund.
Jovanni:Conflict in with China and Taiwan, they'd rather fund those, but they want
Jovanni:to defund the war in Ukraine, whereas the Democrat wants to continue funding it.
Jovanni:So there's this fight in Congress right now but it's still, the media
Jovanni:is still presenting this, this conflict as a Ukrainian Russian war.
Jovanni:The West has nothing to do with it.
Jovanni:They give life to it because of funding and the billions of weapons.
Jovanni:You weapons that goes into this war.
Jovanni:Do Russians see it the same way?
Jovanni:Does see it as a, just a Ukrainian Russian war?
Olesya Orlenko:Oh, no, of course not.
Olesya Orlenko:Of course not.
Olesya Orlenko:In Russia, this conflict is viewed as a war of western countries.
Olesya Orlenko:And I can tell you even in Russia, there is a.
Olesya Orlenko:Tendency to see the Ukraine as a victim, I mean, the Ukrainians, not the Ukraine
Olesya Orlenko:as the, the government, because, but the Ukrainian people viewed in Russia
Olesya Orlenko:as a victim of of the policy, Western policy, United States, of course.
Olesya Orlenko:And of course this, this, uh, view is, represented the idea to simplify things.
Olesya Orlenko:Of course, uh, you cannot, design one as a bad person, bad actor,
Olesya Orlenko:and another as a good doctor.
Olesya Orlenko:Of course, all those conflicts, and I mean, not only Russian, and Ukrainian,
Olesya Orlenko:but, I mean a lot of war that exist now in the modern war is because the
Olesya Orlenko:diplomatic and political, uh, solution of problem could not be found and
Olesya Orlenko:it, it cannot be found because of the incompetence of political, establishment.
Olesya Orlenko:I think that of course western countries are, it's not far for, from, from, call
Olesya Orlenko:them direct, actors of the conflict, because it's not only the matter of,
Olesya Orlenko:of money, financial support of this military, uh, escalation and, uh,
Olesya Orlenko:combats, but the arms that, uh, they deliver to, uh, Ukraine, the arms
Olesya Orlenko:that can attack Russia with these arms, so it's, it's, it's a dead, but
Olesya Orlenko:Russia, of course, Russia, uh, may as well prevent as well, this red line.
Olesya Orlenko:This is extended from the Russian part as well.
Olesya Orlenko:But, I think we are very close to the direct implementation
Olesya Orlenko:in the United States.
Olesya Orlenko:This conflict of Western countries in any way now, even I see some of voices
Olesya Orlenko:from one of our European countries saying that Ukraine will last the war,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, Putin can win, et cetera, et cetera.
Olesya Orlenko:But, All this, they are saying this not to stop with the conflict,
Olesya Orlenko:but to prepare for a bigger one.
Olesya Orlenko:And we can see, uh, in Germany, in France, the rhetoric is political.
Olesya Orlenko:Now that I'm starting to hear it, that you really should prepare
Olesya Orlenko:to the attacks from Russia.
Olesya Orlenko:But, and, uh, we should restore the, for example, in France, it's very Big
Olesya Orlenko:problem the police and, uh, the army, the status of military, men in the
Olesya Orlenko:army is not very high in French society.
Olesya Orlenko:And now Macron says that we need to restore entrainment for teenagers, we
Olesya Orlenko:need to restore the prestige of our army.
Olesya Orlenko:So they are started to talk about that.
Olesya Orlenko:And at the same time, they are saying that, Russia is is going to invade Europe.
Olesya Orlenko:As a historian, I can recognize absolutely, it's not the clichés, even
Olesya Orlenko:the the phrases, the whole phrases, they were used even in 16th century when Russia
Olesya Orlenko:firstly appeared in European field, in European view, and all those Cliche,
Olesya Orlenko:they coming from, from the at time.
Olesya Orlenko:So why, why I'm saying this.
Olesya Orlenko:I, I want to tell that for really, for, for to stop, uh, the, these conflicts,
Olesya Orlenko:you really, you really should have an intention to stop with the escalation.
Olesya Orlenko:But for that, all actors and, Europeans and the USA government, they should,
Olesya Orlenko:they should absolutely change the, vector, you know, of the policy.
Olesya Orlenko:Like, when I was, I was explaining, I was talking about my French friend, and
Olesya Orlenko:he asked me, how can you, what you're proposing now, what now, February of 2024.
Olesya Orlenko:For to stop, uh, for to resolve the problem.
Olesya Orlenko:And I was saying that it was really very hard.
Olesya Orlenko:It was hard two years ago, but two years ago it was still possible.
Olesya Orlenko:But now, I mean, it's harder than two years ago.
Olesya Orlenko:But still, I think still possible.
Olesya Orlenko:But for that, you really should, accept part of responsibility for what happens.
Olesya Orlenko:So, USA and France, for example, should stop denying that they are in conflict.
Olesya Orlenko:Firstly, they should accept and recognize that they are contributing a lot for the
Olesya Orlenko:stabilization of the situation in Europe.
Olesya Orlenko:In post Soviet Union and Ukraine, et cetera, the same for U.
Olesya Orlenko:S.
Olesya Orlenko:A., of course.
Olesya Orlenko:So they should really stop and really go, from there and really to the data
Olesya Orlenko:should go from this area, completely.
Olesya Orlenko:And There are other actors to introduce the independent, to introduce and to
Olesya Orlenko:control the situation, like for example Cuba or Venezuela, but do France or United
Olesya Orlenko:States, will they ever accept That Cuba will contribute to resolve this conflict?
Olesya Orlenko:No, of course not, because for that the United States should really
Olesya Orlenko:change their position towards Cuba.
Olesya Orlenko:But if the United States, for example, changed their position
Olesya Orlenko:towards Cuba, perhaps it will move.
Olesya Orlenko:And the problem is that it's not only the conflict in Ukraine that matters, but,
Olesya Orlenko:now this conflict in Israel and Gaza.
Olesya Orlenko:It's a different conflict, but it comes in the same situation of
Olesya Orlenko:destabilization and Of denial.
Olesya Orlenko:It is the failure of international laws.
Olesya Orlenko:The international justice is the only way to resolve, no matter which country.
Olesya Orlenko:If the international justice doesn't work in one case, it
Olesya Orlenko:means that it doesn't work.
Olesya Orlenko:I mean, not a mistake, but the international justice have
Olesya Orlenko:no right to be selective.
Olesya Orlenko:Not once, because to be selective once, it means to be selective every time.
Olesya Orlenko:So, it should be the same for everybody, no matter of political ideology, it
Olesya Orlenko:should be the same for North Korea, for Cuba, for United States, for
Olesya Orlenko:Russia, for Ukraine, and for France.
Olesya Orlenko:I think it's the only way.
Jovanni:Absolutely.
Jovanni:Well, I think this is a good place for us to wrap it up.
Jovanni:Um, Olesya, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your time,
Jovanni:um, thoughts and experiences on this.
Jovanni:Um, any last comment before we part?
Olesya Orlenko:No, thanks, thanks a lot.
Olesya Orlenko:Thank you for your patience.
Jovanni:What do you, what do you recommend to an audience to learn
Jovanni:more about the situation in Dombas?
Jovanni:What resources do you recommend?
Olesya Orlenko:I think that it's very important, to get the information from
Olesya Orlenko:different resources, from different, point of view, when you have a conflict
Olesya Orlenko:and, uh, when you have, people in media who cover this, this conflict, there's
Olesya Orlenko:always a tendency to, uh, take part.
Olesya Orlenko:And of course, there are a lot of medias and or bloggers
Olesya Orlenko:or uh, uh, journalists who.
Olesya Orlenko:are taking part, uh, Russian part, Donetsk part, and I can tell you
Olesya Orlenko:that I'm taking part as well.
Olesya Orlenko:I am always from on the side of civilians, civilian population, and I was there, I
Olesya Orlenko:was standing there, and I'm always looking from the point of view of a simple person,
Olesya Orlenko:not a military one, it's always a victim, but you really, what I can Really, the
Olesya Orlenko:advice to your audience is not to be afraid of media qualified as pro Russian
Olesya Orlenko:ones, so even if you think that this is Kremlin propaganda, take your time to read
Olesya Orlenko:what they are reading, take your time to analyze and read Compare the information
Olesya Orlenko:from other sources and, I mean, not with the aim to say, ah, I'm, I will find,
Olesya Orlenko:uh, something for to, uh, for to look the arguments against what you're saying.
Olesya Orlenko:No, try to, to understand why people writing this, Don't be
Olesya Orlenko:like, you know, like in France, for example, they forbided the Russian
Olesya Orlenko:channels, information channels.
Olesya Orlenko:Uh, and France, it's the, the country of the freedom of speech.
Olesya Orlenko:And you can see that they are abiding the presence of Russian channels.
Olesya Orlenko:I'm not trying to, uh, defend, for example, Russia today now, uh, but
Olesya Orlenko:I can tell you for ex, for example, in the, in the French example, that
Olesya Orlenko:one, it was the Yellow jackets.
Olesya Orlenko:Yellow jackets, yeah.
Olesya Orlenko:These movements, the protest movements in France, uh.
Olesya Orlenko:The Russia Today was the only media who didn't call those people terrorists,
Olesya Orlenko:bandits, lazy, or walkists, that's why they were followed by French people, I
Olesya Orlenko:think you really should not be afraid of, of cliche and, to make your own
Olesya Orlenko:opinion , to listen to the information and not influenced by the qualification
Olesya Orlenko:they, given to the, to the source of this.
Olesya Orlenko:Just try to think yourself, your own.
Jovanni:Absolutely.
Jovanni:Absolutely.
Jovanni:Um, with that, uh, again, thank you again for joining us and, um, let's
Jovanni:hope together that this conflict comes to an end soon, right?
Jovanni:Take care.
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