From textbooks to handcuffs: Campus resistance for Gaza up close - Ep 156

This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan, Jo

vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha.

Welcome everyone to Fortress on the Hill, a podcast about U.

S.

foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of life.

I'm Jovanni, here with Shiloh.

Thank you for being with us today.

How are you doing, Shiloh?

I'm wonderful.

I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Shalom, the Israeli American Genocidal War against Palestinians, the Palestinian War

of Liberation has been raging on for 268 days or nine months with no end in sight.

Despite the unlimited amount of munition and political cover given to Israel by the

United States and other Western countries, such as the UK, France and Germany, the

Israeli occupation force is no closer to victory than they were on October

8th against the various Palestinian factions leading the resistance.

What they can achieve on the battlefield, they take it on as civilians, an

unnecessary destruction of infrastructure.

Despite being an unpopular venture in the United States, the Biden

administration doesn't seem to budge to the demands of his party's

constituents, demanding a ceasefire.

Instead, the president doubles down.

In the support of the State of Israel, billions of dollars continue

to flow to fund this genocidal war.

In the United States, students have decided not to take this with cross

arms and instead have taken up the task to lead student protests at

the level perhaps not seen since the Vietnam War, the Vietnam era.

On April 17, 2024, students from Columbia University started a national movement

by pitching tents and camping out on the school campuses, the school campus.

This created a ripple effect where more than a hundred campuses Encampments

were erected across the United States.

They raised critical demands about ending war and genocide in Gaza, calling for

universities to diverse from military and weapons manufacturing companies, financial

transparency, and free expression.

Here to tell us more, we have two guests.

Rogue is a political artist and activist in the city of Detroit.

They are affiliated with anarchists, Artists Collective based in Detroit

that is focused on queer liberation.

Roe was a participant in the WSU encampment as an autonomous person.

And Levi, is a student at the University of Michigan, an Air

Force veteran, and a Quaker.

Levi is involved with the Divestment Coalition at the university,

the T A H R I R Coalition, Levy was a participant at the U.

M.

encampment from April until the 21st of May.

How are you guys doing?

Welcome to the show.

Doing well, thank you.

Good to be here.

Levy what is T A H R I R?

What does that stand for?

Yeah it's, it stands for I forget what all the letters stand for, but Tahir

in Arabic means liberation, and each of the letters, are in the vein of that and,

what the Divestment Coalition stands for.

Okay, Tahir.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Welcome to the Show.

let's start with Levi.

Levi you and your cohort set up an encampment in late April that ran

for 30 days until the 21st of May.

You guys were raided at the university by state police in

the middle of worship service.

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Absolutely.

We had actually, had some talk about an encampment before Columbia started theirs

just because there's been encampments in past protest movements particularly

at the University of Michigan.

In the movement against apartheid in South Africa shantytowns

were set up to show people what.

People were living through in South Africa, and they were left up for, I

think, months, maybe over a year or two on it, like it was a very long term protest,

and so that was something that we had in mind, there'd been talks about it, but

when Columbia did theirs and National SJP.

We put out the call to say, hey, anybody who has the capacity to do

this, see if you can put this together.

We took that seriously and ran with it.

When we started to be honest with you, I thought that police would clear us, within

hours, within days, that kind of thing.

I had no idea that the political systems in the region would really

let us stay out there that long.

They really.

resisted clearing us.

I think that they they didn't want to look like all these other schools.

The University of Michigan is like in Ann Arbor, which is a very liberal town, and

they had a lot of different motivations.

City Council was keeping Ann Arbor Police Department from getting involved,

and so that helped us out as well, because when it finally came down to it,

Police Department, like the University Police Department, but

also Michigan State Police to do the clearing of the encampment

without Ann Arbor Police Department.

There's a lot going on, a lot of reasons that they didn't clear us for so long,

but I was really glad that we were able to make it 30 days and keep it

there and keep this community thriving.

We couldn't have done it without so many people from the community supporting us.

Supporting us financially, supporting us with their labor and time and

people coming in and just being in the space to keep it safe.

And it was one of the coolest things I've been a part of in my life,

like just to be there and be with other people and be in an interfaith

community, a community with people of all different kinds of backgrounds.

A learning community we were having teach ins on the Diag right next to where teach

ins were founded in the United States.

It was, a really cool experience.

How was the the administration taking this?

Because I know that we saw the in Columbus, for example,

the administration in Columbus University, they were like leading

the whole crackdown on the students.

How was the administration over there taking it?

Very poorly, they've responded to us, essentially mocking us at every turn.

The president of our university has stated repeatedly that he loves Israel.

He, supports them unconditionally.

He has been to Israel.

He knows exactly what's going on and he knows exactly what they're

doing and he supports it fully.

And I, meet students every day that have no idea that this guy's been to

Israel and completely supports it.

And then our regents, we have eight regents and they control the endowment.

So they've been who we've targeted with our messages and our campaign to say, Hey,

these people hold the keys to divestment.

So we have to get at them to get them to take us seriously.

And That's been impossible.

Even the democratic so called progressive regents, they mock us and

delegitimize us and state very clearly that they will not listen to us.

They will not divest.

They say that they will shield the endowment from political pressures,

which is silly because the university divested from South Africa, from tobacco.

They are on a plan to divest from fossil fuels.

Which obviously they should just do immediately.

And then they even divested from Russia the moment that war broke out there.

So they clearly, it clearly is a political thing.

And we know as leftists, money is inherently political.

This whole thing is political.

And so to say that you'll shield a financial endowment that's invested in

real things that affect real people, to say that you'll shield that from

political, Political pressure is like saying that you'll shield a political

thing from political pressure.

It's just a silly thing to say.

Yeah, I'm curious what a lot of the, Universities

had very specific demands.

Did you all, did UMIC follow the demands of, any other universities?

Did you have special ones, specific to UMIC or, yeah,

that's for either Roque or, Levi?

Sure.

I know that our demands, we tried to keep them pretty simple.

We just had four.

Divest from Israeli apartheid and genocide.

Establish a people's audit.

So a committee that would be positioned to be able to have control

or, at least to make statements and have some kind of advisory.

role were in regards to the endowment, because it's such a large sum of money.

And then boycott Israeli academic institutions was our third demand.

And then abolish campus policing, which went in line with older demands

and the fact that DPSS, which is our, our, the security wing at the

university, has incredibly racist, evil origins, and so that was important to

us to include in our list of demands.

Wayne State had very similar demands.

One thing that the SJP at Wayne State was really demanding that, became a

game at point, at some points, was they were demanding a meeting with

President Espy, due to President Espy continuously sending out, An

email pretty much every day that she.

That she had Vice President Lindsay come by and talk to the encampment

an edited video would get sent out along with a 9 paragraph email about

why what we were doing was wrong.

And then there would be false promises made of we'll meet with you then, and

then it suddenly wouldn't materialize, or they would suddenly find the ability

to hold a very impromptu meeting without giving any of the SJP members

a chance to really organize for it.

That was a continuous use.

the administration.

That and the fire marshal, they really wanted an excuse.

They found they tried to make at you, Mitch, which was a continuous back

and forth with myself and the fire marshal a lot of times, because I

was the one walking him through and having an argument with him, then on

camera about it and correcting them.

Ro, you say that on, tell me that on May 30, the the university

police launched a raid against your camp early in the morning.

Yeah, so they got a 5 like 30 ish raid time on us.

We had thought there was going to be a raid the evening before.

We stuck, I stuck around out there for a little while and then I went

ended up going home that evening.

And I got a call from some of my friends who were out there that at around 530

they had shown up and made a raid.

In issuance of a clearance demand on us.

And then shortly after the clearance demand was made by Wayne State Police.

They began the process of breaking through our barricades, and they

went through a really targeted.

Arrest system, they ignored a lot of campers and they went for anyone that they

really felt was in any sort of leadership.

They got our kitchen guy.

He was one of the first people they snagged as soon as they walked in.

They got a friend of mine that was really active and setting up

the camp and everything else along with almost all the SJP leaders.

You said also they, they targeted, specifically, women,

Muslim women hijabi Women's.

Yeah.

So several of us attempted to march back to the camp.

And when that occurred, they, they got a little bit of around behind the group

and broke into the group forcefully.

There was, like, an attempt by one of the officers to grab me, and then he

lost interest in me and immediately went to an SJP member who they ended

up removing her hijab, while she was on the ground along with her mother,

and I believe her aunt also had their hijabs removed in broad public.

Just the vileness never ceases to amaze me.

Yeah, Quincy State still hasn't acknowledged it.

They haven't called for, they haven't publicly called for an investigation

into the removal of the Chobbs.

They haven't talked about it all.

I think the only thing they've said is we'll review the body cam footage.

Tell us a little bit how your in your school, how

was this encampment Started?

how you guys launched it and what was the reaction of the administration?

Our chapter out here launched it.

They called me in day of to come play Street Medic for them and the help out

there and They did it really beautifully.

They had a really big distraction that occurred with a circular march, and

then they just started dropping tents while that was going on and it took

the cops a little bit of time, really, to respond to us several members got

out there, they got fencing really quickly, they grabbed pretty much they

If it wasn't nailed down in the first 12 hours, it was getting dragged to our

walls, which then became the thing for a lot of us that were there to help out

was building up those walls and just making it more difficult to take it.

And the cops had a really hard time dealing with us initially.

We had a motorcycle cop that the first night circled around the encampment the

entire evening and revving his engine like every time he came up by tents.

They brought out a tactical vehicle within like the first Three minutes

of us being out there, as soon as the sun started coming down, there

was a tactical vehicle coming up to just park and watch the encampment.

And that was there for several days.

Several members got together to start the process of trying to block their

view and deny them visibility and access to the camp at that point.

I'm curious if any of the demands y'all both listed the very

simple, direct, clear demands, or any of those, demands reached, were any of them

Not a single Wayne State demands have been met to date.

We got admonished by our Board of Governors member, Brian Barnhill at the

last Board of Governors meeting, telling us to use critical thinking to see that

divestment wouldn't change anything.

And that was rather interesting.

3 minutes steal from him.

And who was this again?

It was governor, it was board of governors member, Brian Barnhill, at the very

end of the meeting at the last board of governors meeting, which we were

supposed to be able to have dialogue.

Actually, they had promised us.

During the encampment that there was going to be an opportunity for dialogue

with the Board of Governors regarding divestment during public comment, and

then they move public comment to the end.

After they went to go close it, he objected to it so that he could

say a 3 minute piece essentially just talking very paternally to the

student body that was requesting divestment, at one point telling

us to use critical thinking skills.

And it was just a very interesting tirade from him.

So, what were you supposed to do with critical thinking?

To me is that I think we're just going to start trying to look for people.

That was my takeaway from the, from his tirade, honestly.

Wow.

And how about you, Levi were any of the demands reached or were there

any discussions started around them?

Do you think there's been any sort of dialogue between the administration?

Not

at All.

yeah we've been at it for quite a while at the University of Michigan.

There's been a SGP chapter here for many years.

And then since October, SGP and Jewish Voice for Peace have been at the forefront

of the Divestment Coalition, getting more organizations involved in that.

So it's been a big effort, our university was one of those that had

a whole lot going on for divestment long before the encampment started.

And so they were poised very clearly to just say no, yet again, no.

And I think that points to the fact that we, have to make it impossible for them.

We have to make it uncomfortable for them, right?

Nobody convinced the Dutch.

That what they were doing in South Africa was morally reprehensible and

that they should stop because of that.

They made it politically and economically uncomfortable for them

until they just couldn't keep doing it.

And if we really believe that what these people are doing is wrong,

if we really believe that they're aiding in genocide, then it makes

absolutely, it makes a lot of sense to just make their lives incredibly

uncomfortable until they divest.

Yeah, I have to say Levi hit it on the nail on the head.

It just has to be completely uncomfortable for these regents and

these board of governors members to conduct business as usual.

And that's really going to be key on college campuses to divestment.

I think that the more we see student activism making it harder for them to

conduct business as usual, the more successful it's going to be long term.

What do you, what do you, these national protests that's going On?

what do you see a chink in the armor?

Do you see anything shifting with these with these protests

happening around the country?

Absolutely.

I really do.

And I see it happening in many ways.

I think that, of course, they're on college campuses.

A lot of the impact that you're going to see is in the younger generation, but

you're seeing that even in young people who are not involved, that have maybe

stopped by the encampment once or twice, they, without question, understand that

what Israel is doing is wrong, and they understand a whole lot more about Zionism

than past generations of Americans did.

So that's powerful.

It's particularly powerful when we're talking about Young Jewish people and

Jewish students at these universities that are leading the protests, getting

involved in them, learning more, we're talking some people that were raised by

Zionist parents, many people involved that were raised by anti Zionist

parents, and some people involved That were really on the fence before and I

think that's where a lot of the, I think that terrifies the conservative Jewish

establishment and it terrifies the, these Zionist universities because they

see that you've got A bunch of Jewish students involved in the protests, and

then maybe just a few counter protesting and of course not all of the people that

disagree with us and are Jewish are going to show up with an Israeli flag, but

plenty do, and it just goes to show that the people that feel really passionately

about them, about this issue, There's a very strong group that is on the side

for Palestine, and so that really tells you something about why they have put so

much money into universities because it is really about controlling the message.

Israel has lasted this long by convincing people that it is a

progressive ethnic cleansing, that it's progressive apartheid, that

it's a progressive ethnostate.

And the only way that we'll demolish it is by showing people what a lie that is,

and particularly considering the impact of the Jewish left on this world that's

particularly important in the Jewish community, and that's something that

we're seeing at these college campuses.

What's your take on it, Ro?

We had Wayne State doesn't have the strongest JVP voice out there, but

we did get a lot of support from New Mitch's JVP who had members regularly

coming out to help support and help fight.

And then we also had the Detroit Jewish for Peace, that

was out there engaging people.

pretty much daily hitting the university as much as they could

with the demands of the encampment.

I do think that it is shifting things.

We didn't have nearly as many counter protesters as I expected because Hillel

has a rather large presence on our campus.

They control half of the 6th floor of the Student Center.

And they have a pretty impressive budget, but they didn't really show up.

We had one, one counter prostitutor who showed up the very first day

for prayer to stand around and act intimidating, and he wandered off after

about 20 minutes of a staring Contest.

but I do agree Levi's correct.

I think that the coalition is stronger than it's ever been.

It's growing.

Wayne State's coalition is growing rapidly.

Particularly around the Detroit metro area.

We're seeing more groups sign on, and joining up and fighting back against it.

And just in the discussion around like coalitions and really,

diverse group of peoples, like coming together, like what each of you what

were some of, what some of the beauty that you witnessed and were a part

of, in this solidarity encampments.

And then on the counter, like what was some of the pain that you also

witnessed amongst all the just.

I'll start.

One thing that really happened at Wayne State's encampment is that our

student body had previously been not quite connected particularly between

our queer student body and SJP.

We just hadn't really, we supported them, we just never really engaged

with them directly very often.

The encampment definitely changed that and it definitely forged a much stronger

student coalition on Wayne State's campus as we dealt with the university and

its lash back, along with it attempting to pink wash during our encampment.

They tried to open a show and then ended up having to cancel it due

to the encampment, which was nice.

And that was a queer that was a Mighty Real Queer Detroit show that

they attempted to open at the E.

Wayne Jacobs which my activist group my collective called for

a boycott, and it was joined by several campus, And then it ended up

getting canceled and shoved around.

I think it had a very weak opening overall, which is nice.

But yeah, we're seeing much stronger student coalitions come out of it.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, there is.

And we've seen the, we've seen that it's working.

We've seen that it's working.

What's happening across the nation because the.

The the images, are, the images coming from Palestine is reaching everyone.

It's anyone with anyone with a computer, anyone with an iPhone, anyone with,

with, social media can see the images.

This is this is the first, genocide in history happening in real

time where everybody's knowing, everybody can see what is happening.

And not only, this is effect, not only this is.

Obviously affecting negatively the the Palestinian people,

but it's also affecting Israel.

Israel like, you said, Levi that, before the narrative that Israel had

to, keep her up, to prop her up is falling apart like a house of cards.

But not only that is happening, but also the United States is falling apart.

The narrative of, the United States of this, force for good, this, democracy

promotion stepping in, whatever narrative that it uses to justify any

type of action around the world is also falling apart too, because now the

world is seeing that the hypocrisy of U.

S.

foreign policy.

For one X state, you want to bring the hammer down we're not going to tolerate

this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, for X state, but for Israel, it does,

it just bends over backwards to, cover, to provide cover, political shielding,

Of any criticism, not only that, it attacks anyone who attacks Israel.

For example, where the ICJ, the ICJ, brought charges on Israel

for genocide, et cetera, right?

The United States responded with sanctions, on the judges, you've seen

here in Texas, for example, they passed a legislation where pretty much criticizing

Israel is akin to anti Semitism.

The governor here any institution, any public institution that permits that that

permits criticism of Israel pretty much is open to, for sanction by the state.

So we've seen the reaction.

That's happening.

This dystopian, draconian reaction is happening to shield

this, one particular state.

A state, very small state, probably the size of New Jersey which is small

population which blows the mind for anyone, but yeah, I'm interested

to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah I, it is particularly unsettling to see, this, Anti Zionism

equals anti Semitism kind of scenario be codified across the country, and it is,

it's worth thinking about that these are states that have leaders that didn't say

a thing about the anti Semitism on the far in Charlottesville or any other place,

like they, it's clearly not a really big concern for them, but criticizing Israel

And they've been given the go ahead by conservative Jewish organizations like

the ADL to define anti Zionism as anti Semitism, which for them means defining

anti imperialism as anti Semitism.

And so it's a huge issue that we needed to stand against as a free speech issue.

And as Israel continue, continuing to be a bully to the Jews.

The United States and its citizens through its lobby in the United States,

and so that's it's, ridiculous, but on the heartening side, the more that Jewish

people come out in support of Palestine and the more that people discuss this,

the more that there's, the more clear it is that our leaders are Jewish.

only care about having the back of imperialism, about like

propping up imperialism and United States imperialism wherever it

Is.

the more that distinction between Zionism and Judaism is made clear

by Jewish people and by people doing their research, the more that helps

people to see that this isn't a Jewish issue, this is an imperialism issue.

And I think that's huge because many progressives are rightly concerned

about anti Semitism and I know for me personally, before February,

I had a block in my mind where I would think about Palestine and I

would just resist it so strongly.

I would see news articles about it and I wouldn't click and I just,

I really tried to stay out of it.

And so now I'm trying to talk to friends that I know that I feel are

in a similar situation of just wanting to stay out of it because they're

Concerned about getting into something like that, that they believe this idea,

oh, it's just too complicated for me.

And I think it's totally, fair when other people have a lot of blame and

and, feel frustrated with those people.

But I feel like I don't, I'm not entitled to that because I was there.

And so I try to approach those people with understanding and say, here's

what helped me get involved and try to help them get involved too.

And I guess along those lines, Rogue, what would you say, we're

all veterans here and antiwar, anti imperialist veterans, and what would

you say to a veteran who's on the fence right now about speaking up or,

Actually I would tell any veteran that's on the fence about

it that they really need to sit down and reflect on the oaths they swore

and what those things really mean.

At the end of the day for us as human beings, our community is here.

Yes, and speak to the active duty as well here.

We all swore an oath to take care of ourselves here.

We all swore an oath to take care of our fellow man in this country to face

all those enemies, foreign and domestic.

And when we look at what imperialism and what American imperialism is

doing just here in the United States, I'm maybe, what, 45 minutes away

from Southfield right now, Levi?

Yeah.

Which with Novi makes the weapons manufacturing corridor of Michigan and

any type of weapon that you can think of is out here, and it's giant money.

As veterans, we have to get in the streets.

We have to get in the streets.

We have to stand at the forefront of this.

And really argue that this is not in our interest.

This is not in our national interest.

If you're a statist, obviously, if you're an anarchist, you're about

liberation of all, so you definitely should be out there anyways.

But, that's really where this comes down to is that we've all sworn an oath.

And we can see that American imperialism is not working.

It hasn't been working except for a very select elite few.

And we're seeing the issues from Israel and how it goes about in its policing

coming back into our streets today.

Tying it into Wayne State's encampment.

Our police chief, Holt, is Israeli trained.

He went over there.

A couple years ago, I went through all that training and we're seeing

those things come back and be used against student protesters.

Now we're seeing militarized tactics and militarized gear being

intentionally used against us.

And as veterans, we have to stand up and say, nah, that's not okay.

That's not how this is going to go.

And you're not going to run a tactical vehicle on college campuses.

Because it's just fucking wrong.

You don't need to be out there with your baton and your nightstick and everything

else trying to intimidate your student body because it's just fucking wrong.

And active duty has to stand up and look at that as well and decide

if this is really what they want to be defending whether they want

to be defending the people at home who aren't imperialists here.

So that's where I stand at on that.

Absolutely.

Did you have a question, Jovanni?

I was gonna.

No

Go ahead,

Okay.

So I have one, I have two last questions, one for each of

you, and then one for Levi.

so the, yes, I spent a while since I've been in college, like a long while, but

I assume y'all are on summer break now.

And I think that the administrations were hoping that things would

fizzle out over summer breaks.

The, and, I'm curious, not to divulge information or whatever, but what's the

plan for when the fall semester starts?

Do you, what do you picture happening?

Do you think that the student encampments are, going to spring back up?

Do you, yeah, what what do you hope will happen and what do you think is

realistic around what might happen?

I think that what we're probably going to see is we're going to see a lot.

We're seeing some of that happen at Wayne State now.

We're going to see a lot of hit and run graffiti campaigning, that's going

to be drawing a lot of attention.

That image is going to live on social media for a little while.

The W at Wayne State just had red splatter all over it.

And then they got the video of them cleaning it off too.

There's.

Yeah.

Large format stickers have been popping up and taking over our

building names at Wayne State's campus.

I think we're going to see a lot of that type of propaganda play at the moment.

Currently, I don't think, and this is unless we have a huge push of people,

I don't think we're going to see encampments spring back up in the fall.

Like we have throughout the spring semester.

I think we might see we saw in Chicago where there's a fake out on it and

they just drop a bunch of tents and then bounce out on the encampment

and make the cops pick up the stuff.

Which is just wasting the resources of the police and kudos to them.

But that's where I see things moving forward right now.

At least at Wayne State, they've also gone into hostile architecture at this time.

The space where our encampment is, where our encampment was, is

covered in brand new sprinklers.

They have a circle of sprinklers around Spirit Rock, which was

the center of our encampment.

And it's just getting sprayed.

Routinely, we have sprinklers that are hitting light posts or directly in light

posts, no matter which way they move.

And it's just meant to turn the campus into a hostile environment

for anything to spring up again.

And I know that you, Mitch, have been passing through there the past

few days, and it's a very similar setup where there's lots of cameras.

Everywhere particularly at walking level, there's cameras all over

the diag now, as well and lots

of security roaming.

Yeah, I think it's been hard to me,

hard for me to see the student movement slow down for summer because

the killing is not slowing down.

And the planes and every other vehicle taking arms to Israel,

they're not slowing down.

And it's hard to know what to do with that.

But of course, it's not just people taking a breather, it's also people

that have summer plans, trips abroad, or other kinds of things that are summer

jobs, whatever it may be, like, There's a lot of reasons that people are less

involved, and of course the encampments took a lot of energy out of a lot of

people, so I think that's part of it too.

In line with that, I am hoping that our return to campuses is marked

by, efficiency and imagination.

To imagine what kinds of things we can do to really capture people's hearts and

minds and, really, like I said, make the regions uncomfortable in a way that, means

less labor for us and less risk as well.

And so that's tough.

It's always a balance.

Yeah I'm not sure about the encampments returning they've definitely, they're

definitely concerned about that at the university but of course

they can't prepare for everything.

And if they wanted to prepare for everything, a good starting place

would be to look at their own history as a university look at the movements

that they now applaud because a lot of times that's what we turn to, to

figure out what to do next, right?

The Black Action Movement, it had three waves at the University of Michigan,

and at various times, they did just about everything that we've ever Done.

yeah, we've got lots of ideas, and the university, we have a, they have a

contracted security group that, observes open areas for the university, and

we heard from one of them, and That a university administrator told him that

they were probably going to downsize staffing heading towards the fall.

Because they believed that students are fickle and they'll just choose

something else to do something around.

And so of course that, I have no idea if that is true.

But that really riled me up personally and got me thinking absolutely not.

We will come back with a vengeance.

Israel isn't stopping anytime soon, and even if they did, the real dangerous

thing for the Hasbara at this point is that people, know, students know,

young people know, young Jewish people know, Israel will never come back from

this propaganda wise, politically.

They could stop the killing, they could stop the imprisoning, they could

stop, a whole lot of things today.

And people would still say, this has to end sooner or later they'll

just get back to doing exactly what settler colonial states require.

Ethnic cleansing and apartheid, they're just things that you have

to do if you want a settler colonial state on somebody else's land.

And pretty soon they'll just keep doing those things.

And so I'm inspired that people know that people are well educated

despite what the news says about Us.

and I know that students will continue to come back on this issue.

It's not just a since October 7th thing.

This is a revitalization and a push and a movement that has been

in the United States on college campuses for over 20 years.

Yeah, hard agree.

I see you're off mute, Jovanni, what's up?

Yeah, no, you just mentioned something also about young Jews in

America one of the biggest contradictions in the official narrative here is

that much of these protests across the country are led by, by young Jewish

Americans, or, so that right there fall in his face, the whole notion, the

whole propaganda of anti Semitism just fall, on the face because much of this

movements are led by, by young Jews.

Yeah, I don't, I think I'm with you Levi, piss off a

young person, and you're going to have a problem for a long time.

Yeah it's, always been in antiwar movements, the students who have

who have kept the fire going.

And I am with you in the hope and imagination that will continue.

Yeah.

My, my last question is for you, Levi, in that, I know that you were a dear friend

of Aaron Bushnell after bonding during Air Force boot camp, and, for many of us

veterans, Aaron's Act really, catalyzed in our place as far as needing to speak up

and say something and, and have a voice.

And I'm, curious around, What do you think Aaron, yeah, would have thought

about the encampments or, I know that he was very active in, in unhoused

communities and so what do you picture Aaron's response to student encampments?

Yeah, mostly I'm just sad that he can't be a part of it because,

there are so many aspects that I think would have meant a lot to him to.

Be one of these outside agitators supporting as a community member, and

so it is rough to see everything, in some ways, on my more mystical days, I

feel like, I feel like I am able to be a continuation of what he would have done.

I hope so.

I don't think I'm doing as much but, just being able to meet all these people.

Yeah, sometimes I think of it as carrying a piece of him and trying to

help other people meet him through me.

And yeah, at the encampment, the last day we were there, I spoke about

him for, quite a while and got to share stories and answer questions.

And yeah, it's tough at times to meet people and think this person is so cool.

And I met them.

Because Aaron will never get to meet them.

Cause I just don't, I just don't know how active I'd be involved in

this movement if it weren't for him.

I always hoped that I would be by now, right?

But I just never know.

And so whenever I meet somebody I think, I wish I Aaron can meet this person.

And, so I just think hopefully I have some piece of him and, that

piece of him has met them through Me.

yeah, I think that he'd be incredibly inspired and motivated by it.

There's a part of me that thinks that, the encampments would have been

something to keep him going and keep him feeling like there was movement.

So that's hard too.

Mostly, I think he'd be right there alongside of us, and

that's where we need to be.

There's so many people that feel incredibly hopeless, so many people

thinking about doing something like he did, and you just have to show people

the way, you have to show people here's what we can do to get involved, to make

a difference that doesn't involve, ending your own life, that doesn't involve Making

sacrifices that you can never take back.

You have to pour yourself into it in a way that keeps you alive.

And I just hope that people continue to do that, particularly veterans

and particularly active duty Members.

Aaron once told me that I was organizing a unionizing campaign and I told him

something I had done, some letter I think I'd written to the owners, and he

was like, wow I really look up to you.

You're always standing up to authority in this way.

He's I may talk a big game, but I would never do something like that.

And.

Obviously he did.

He stood up to authority in a big way and made, made the Air Force look pretty

bad, which is why you're seeing so many people, particularly in the Air Force,

come out and say, the Air Force didn't say anything about Aaron Bushnell and I'm

going to make them say something about it.

I'm going to make this an issue for them.

And that is something I'm really proud of.

And I know that he would be because it is one thing to leave this world in that

way, and it is actually A different thing and at times a more difficult thing to

stand up and then face the facts and then face the repression right from

the Air Force get the LOCs and get the paperwork that tries to punish you for

standing up for what's right, for standing up for, what you vowed to Protect.

But yeah, I just hope that people continue to live out his legacy.

And Aaron, if you're hearing us.

Appreciate you, brother.

I think that's a good place for us to wrap up today.

Levi, Ro, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your

time with us, your thoughts, your experiences on this terrible event that

we're all witnessing on Livestream.

any last comments before we depart?

Good to be with you.

Thank you.

Thanks for having us out here.

All right.

Thank you all for joining us today.

I hope to see you soon again.

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