Troublemakers, The Greatest Dog and Pony Show in Iraq w/ Stephen Russell – Ep 149

[00:00:00] Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign policy, anti-imperialism,

[00:00:22] skepticism and the American way of war.

[00:00:25] I'm Henry, thank you for joining us today.

[00:00:27] I'm here with Steven Russell to talk about his upcoming Iraq memoir coming out soon called

[00:00:34] The Troublemakers, the greatest dog in pony show in Iraq.

[00:00:38] And Steven is also a comic book author and we're going to talk about that a little bit too.

[00:00:43] Steven welcome to Fortress On A Hill, how are you today?

[00:00:47] Don't know right.

[00:00:48] Thank you Henry, it's good to be here.

[00:00:51] It's good to have you here to talk to so let's start by talking a little bit about your

[00:00:55] upcoming book.

[00:00:56] It's a memoir of yours from that time in Iraq, both some of the time before you left being

[00:01:02] there and there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff in there.

[00:01:06] There's a lot of lessons they think that people can learn from going through the things

[00:01:11] that you share.

[00:01:12] That's really broad obviously but you talked about watching their seeing your was it?

[00:01:20] There was the sniper incident that you mentioned and I guess I can let you tell that in more

[00:01:26] detail if we get into it but the but is a profound impact on somebody to see something like

[00:01:31] that to go through something like that and to take in everybody else's pain around that.

[00:01:38] But please tell the listeners what your book was about, your book is about and what your

[00:01:43] goals with it are.

[00:01:44] Absolutely.

[00:01:45] Yeah.

[00:01:46] The generalization would be the book is about my deployment to Iraq in my unit Bravo Company

[00:01:52] 112 Kav.

[00:01:53] It was the third heavy brigade combat teams that we were deployed to the Deala province

[00:01:59] which was where like the most intense fighting happened during the search and for people

[00:02:05] who aren't too familiar with a lot of what was going on.

[00:02:09] This stuff is three years removed from the invasion and then I think maybe a year removed

[00:02:14] from the Luzzi and we had Satter city right after that.

[00:02:19] So the next combat push that Army had in the area was the surge and the surge was a response

[00:02:27] to the entire country had just fallen apart.

[00:02:30] They were going through a civil war and there was just pure chaos going on at the time

[00:02:37] there was no real functioning government.

[00:02:39] There was no, the Army was standing government for the country and even at its best still

[00:02:47] couldn't make that happen.

[00:02:49] And that was their intent was to bring as many soldiers over into the country as possible

[00:02:56] increase the intensity of the fighting and try to drive out okay who was formulating

[00:03:02] into the time.

[00:03:05] We were there ground zero.

[00:03:07] We ended up losing 12 guys out of my alone and our battalion had the highest casualty

[00:03:13] we've been ready during the deployment and some things were due to situations others

[00:03:19] were to just poor management and bad decision making but that's a part of the experience

[00:03:27] so I don't blame anybody.

[00:03:30] That's the point is I worked on this book for 10 years writing things down.

[00:03:36] One of the first things I did when I finished the deployment was to write down as many incidents

[00:03:41] as I could and just to have those and I sat on those probably for five years and didn't

[00:03:46] do anything with them but going through my life journey I just ran into so many people

[00:03:51] that even though we had just finished all of this stuff overseas nobody had a clue

[00:03:58] of anything that went on nobody had any deal what was being done you would tell people

[00:04:03] like yeah they had a civil war in Iraq people were like what are you talking about?

[00:04:07] You guys were over there what civil war on your just like yeah these are things and so

[00:04:13] that there was imperative to try to inform people and say hey these are the things occurring

[00:04:21] and these are the actions that are happening in your name overseas abroad so I'm more

[00:04:25] liberal impaired behind that but there's also this idea of a lot of combat infantry grunt

[00:04:32] guys are really shut down and really closed lit and it's not so much about like being

[00:04:41] afraid it's just like this idea that if you talk about things you're trying to brag or

[00:04:45] trying to get something you don't deserve or maybe you're saying things in a way that

[00:04:51] might bring dishonor to your falling comrades and things like that and because of that I

[00:04:57] think those guys stories they need to be told people need to know who these people are

[00:05:03] because the 12 brothers that I'd over there they're important to me and it's important

[00:05:08] that other people know who they are and know exactly the circumstances that they died

[00:05:14] under and every time you see some sort of military literature or entertainment movie show it's

[00:05:22] always in some overtly patriotic way it's sanitized it's very scrubbed and I was like I'm now one

[00:05:31] of those guys I'm a special forces dude I'd eventually try for special forces got my 19-day

[00:05:37] non-select and all that but it's I was a private it was just a Joe just out there living

[00:05:43] these things and because of where I was at I saw a lot more than people can credit for

[00:05:51] because you're the guy at the bottom of the total poll and you're just going by so I was like all right

[00:05:56] let me start formulating this and pull this together in a story that I can tell people and

[00:06:04] started talking about your book a little bit and something that people I don't know it may

[00:06:09] surprise people to see it perhaps not but you're quite critical of yourself throughout the whole

[00:06:16] book that's you take very some very hard points with things that you saw and that

[00:06:23] wishing that something something had gone different or wishing that the people right above you

[00:06:28] or even further above you had made different choices and you talk about this culpability that

[00:06:35] you feel you have this how do you and then specifically the security of city for me where does it

[00:06:41] start and where is it at as far as if you think of it in like a legal immoral sense with culpability

[00:06:50] here like okay I was 2019 20 years old I went over there I was 20 when I left and because we

[00:06:57] were there for a year and a half and it's yeah at some point you don't want to say oh it's just

[00:07:03] following orders because that's that sounds very not oh I was just doing what I was told there was

[00:07:09] there was a moral belief set behind what I was doing I did go over there believing a lot of the

[00:07:16] propaganda that was fed to me it's like oh yeah we're finding for freedom and trying to beat

[00:07:23] the terrorist that got us on 9-11 and we're doing all this kind of stuff there was also a

[00:07:29] like call to adventure on it I'm not going to miss out on this war I'm not going to have

[00:07:35] decades later in my life being like man I wish I would have done that there's that point but as far

[00:07:42] as the individual actions what's going on I think I'm as culpable as any like 20-year-old

[00:07:51] in that situation that honestly it's like a lot of other wars and combat stuff for you here

[00:08:00] there was a lot more wild west a lot more open and there was as much as we had a lot of restrictions

[00:08:08] on us at the same time it's like the most free I've ever felt in my entire life and so

[00:08:15] I struggled mostly with survivor skill when I left that was my biggest culpable you know

[00:08:22] was like you look at all the guys who died and were injured and you're thinking wow these

[00:08:29] are really good dudes and oh man it looks like a lot of us here are like shitbags and we're not

[00:08:36] great people I had two article 15 that was a knucklehead going through acting like that kid

[00:08:42] and when you see all these other people die here like seems like only the shitbags

[00:08:47] does that make me what are the ship and then there's nothing really that I think I can do to like

[00:08:53] honor these guys because of who I am it definitely has you asked questions about your

[00:09:00] your acceptance within the larger group what happened and how someone reacts to it I

[00:09:06] did this I hope totally cool if you're not comfortable answering this but I wonder about

[00:09:13] the remainder of your company the guys that wanted the guys that didn't get any kind of major

[00:09:21] physical injuries of any kind and they are trying like you they are trying to deal with all of

[00:09:27] this certainly there be people dealing with others dealing with survivors guilt wondering why it

[00:09:33] was that white and 12 soldiers is a wow that's the that is up in the worst places the worst stats

[00:09:42] across all of Iraq and probably Afghanistan too well guys 12 families not having

[00:09:50] their kids come home and then everything that comes out from there and so I'm I guess I'm just

[00:09:56] wondering how is the guys that you're still in touch with from that time how are they doing how are

[00:10:02] they how are they faring through all the things that were stirring up there's guys who

[00:10:07] are doing groups is definitely some guys have more PTSD that others take for instance my team

[00:10:15] you're sorry Crowley at the time he had already been through like two deployments by the time

[00:10:20] we went over here when he had already experienced having loss and having dudes in his squad die

[00:10:27] even though he was is like mentally that this is a possibility and mentally this is what's

[00:10:33] supposed to happen it's like how many times can that happen to you before you like for eight

[00:10:38] sure sure and it was it's one of those things where it's you almost say it's bad to say but

[00:10:46] like him getting injured over their deployment having to go back state side was probably the best thing

[00:10:52] and sure but also guys who've been major successes they're owning their own companies or

[00:11:03] they're working doing their jobs and stuff like that even then there's still this like

[00:11:10] cultural sentiment amongst us and amongst Iraq veterans definitely eat from the surge and prior

[00:11:18] who like it in this cultural part of American society that we don't belong and on paper

[00:11:28] you would think if you if you're just looking at a resume and you're like oh my god this dude's like

[00:11:33] go on to write rag oh he's got a degree oh he's doing this he's got these accomplishments stellar guy

[00:11:39] yeah bring him on then it's something something in the air something in culture where

[00:11:46] it's no we don't want these people around they're like broken they're abused and all the guys

[00:11:52] who could go over and do the things that we did are not people who fit well socially in the first

[00:12:00] place you got to weigh that back and forth is it more just who I am or is it what these events like

[00:12:07] turn me into sure I had on my second tour which as was during the surge although what was

[00:12:14] happening where I was much quieter the guys that had already been on two tours three tours

[00:12:21] some good friends some decent decent guys but you could see even in their time already over there

[00:12:26] that their ability to weather these things had already been degraded significantly

[00:12:34] and so for those guys I am very thankful that our time over there was quieter that they didn't

[00:12:40] add in their absence from their family and everything else that goes in the moment that they

[00:12:44] didn't add additional physical violence to their their bowl their psychic ball that they have to now

[00:12:51] carry with them before we're coming there wasn't to say that we didn't have we didn't have deaths we

[00:12:56] didn't have injuries but but note that the whole myth of success around the all volunteer force

[00:13:04] really just degrades and falls completely apart in those things because you can't send

[00:13:09] the same people you did they have a lifespan they have a number of times their ticket can get punched

[00:13:14] and then they arrive at those points and but it really tells you a lot about how the American

[00:13:20] psychic props up all those ideas how they continue to push those things and of course Americans act

[00:13:25] as though that the military is an electric fence in certain ways that they can scream over the fence

[00:13:31] thank you for your service but they're only going to get so close because they're still

[00:13:36] owning those other ideas about is this fact going to turn violent to see going to do this

[00:13:41] but it's not that vets can't become violent they certainly do but most do not and most don't need

[00:13:47] to be treated with those kind of kid gloves but that is what we have learned to do the hypermasculine

[00:13:54] nature of being an American that they're okay they're tough felt well whatever so me I'm going

[00:13:59] to share my notes here I had wanted to before we got to talk about a couple specific things I

[00:14:05] wanted to ask you about the your criticism of heroism and the hero worship

[00:14:13] and that's something that your book deals with but the comic book that you've created also deals

[00:14:18] with some pretty some pretty deep ways share with listeners a little bit about your thoughts

[00:14:24] about those subjects yeah once the book comes out that's part of the forward I think I opened

[00:14:30] within the first few lines I'm not a hero I was like I'm not Captain America I'm not I wasn't

[00:14:36] some sort of officer I wasn't some sort of leader and most most of the time in the military

[00:14:43] I found myself in trouble I found myself sticking around the peanut gallery hanging around

[00:14:48] kind of the alternate crowd and it's very weird because it was those kinds of the things that I

[00:14:55] think took me through I think a lot of that physically and mentally protecting me because you can

[00:15:02] learn it's okay let's take these things as hard as other guys let's dwell on this I get

[00:15:09] to wake up every day and I was like every single day waking today's the day I die I'm going to

[00:15:14] die today and so once you meet peace with that anything you do from there is just what

[00:15:21] so to put people on the pedestal even some of the greatest people that we have in American history

[00:15:31] and which is a race all of the blemishes and everything created that person nobody is perfect nobody's

[00:15:40] godlike I got it at the same time we sanitize all of our heroes and by doing that we take away

[00:15:49] the ability to learn the lessons went from the failures and the issue they add in their life

[00:15:56] and that's honestly what's more important I think is people and culture is to

[00:16:02] learn those lessons and hear those things you Ed you would talk a little bit about the

[00:16:08] army's pension for awards and about the senior staff senior ops people at a company HQ

[00:16:16] battalion what have you getting a bronze star as their tour award and that's not to say of course

[00:16:22] that those guys don't work hard for what they do they absolutely do but the bronze star was created

[00:16:28] as an award for knowing more two combat veterans that's what its initial purpose was and my grandfather

[00:16:37] got one when he was when he fought in war two and I remember him mentioning because I had talked to

[00:16:42] him about this before he passed away that most of the guys he knew that had bronze stars or debt

[00:16:49] you do very few people that gotten one as a living person and so I explain to him this whole dynamic

[00:16:57] of what they're giving these out as awards tour awards they're not combat awards they're not

[00:17:03] achievement awards of any kind and just how devaluing that is to junior enlisted guys because for

[00:17:12] those guys to get a bronze star may mean they lost the way it may mean that they whatever it is versus

[00:17:19] these other guys who at again they work very hard but what they do is not being an active combat

[00:17:26] and so it makes you almost want to vomit just the thought of it just give the idea that

[00:17:32] we that again it's the people being put up on a pedestal but not for anything that retains that same

[00:17:39] kind of meaning and I really appreciate what you said about the the the blemishes of people that

[00:17:47] were when we talk about people like let's say dr king that we generally talk about the things that

[00:17:55] are main media consumption items about him he was born here he died here and the things that he said

[00:18:03] that are most consumable most easily able to be made into sound bites and put on the news you mentioned

[00:18:10] it in your forward now that I'm thinking about you mentioned about him having multiple affairs

[00:18:14] does this mean that the ideas he had at eless value no it means that he was a human being incapable

[00:18:20] of making poor choices and keeping secrets and having people ask him serious questions but the

[00:18:26] serious questions definitely need to be asked I think one of the big ones I hit up to is George

[00:18:31] Washington first president all that but the man was completely the only military action he saw

[00:18:39] the british army was to get captured and kick off the french and indian war and then from there

[00:18:45] in every single battle he was a part of and direct in the american revolution he lost and so it's

[00:18:51] almost like when you start learning these things and see all this history it's a tale as old as

[00:18:58] zinc it was too young to really understand what was going on around me but with these awards

[00:19:08] and things like that it was more of the means to an end people were trying to pad their careers

[00:19:16] pad their awards books whether they were going to get out or not they had some sort of system

[00:19:21] went to move forward and it did exactly what you said because by the time I went back active duty

[00:19:28] in 2012 they were starting to remove promotion points for combat awards and saying no can't use

[00:19:35] these anymore or they're going to be devalued by how much this promotion points cost for your

[00:19:41] nco and your promotions and things like that and that was just the thing you would have some

[00:19:48] shit back nco who's going up trying to get his e6 and he's been a complete failure for most of

[00:19:55] his career but he has all these awards from deployment ronstart and all this and you gotta be

[00:20:00] yep promote ahead appears we can't do that and then all the guys who were most of the people

[00:20:07] who were decent had to head on their shoulders and had some sort of sense about them they left

[00:20:12] the military so you're just left with all of this and it did just that I went back in I used some

[00:20:18] of my promotion points were value to get my sergeant my e5 told me stuff like you usually

[00:20:23] purple heart this time on your promotion points you can't use it again and your combat time

[00:20:29] started taking that having that because you had these guys with long deployments and

[00:20:33] they were taking guys putting them out in six and nine month deployments and they're going to their

[00:20:38] promotion boards and saying I got four deployments under my belt and you're like it's still not as

[00:20:42] long as the one deployed and all the guys who are initially if you're going to cheapen something

[00:20:49] like that then that's what society's going to see it at and when you leave and you try to tout

[00:20:55] that just can't be like pays it's not really worth that much and it shows too because the military

[00:21:02] was focusing on all of this stuff but they weren't focusing on things that matter as far as your

[00:21:09] job as far as making what do crossover into the civilian sector until I think 2018 that army drivers

[00:21:19] didn't have a CDL for their whole time they would have to go out and do the same thing that

[00:21:24] everybody else does to get a CDL same thing with the medics just get out and basically empties

[00:21:31] through paramedic school and all that kind of stuff and it's

[00:21:35] and then even me infantry guy I got out and I couldn't I couldn't immediately qualify to work

[00:21:42] armed security and they were like you've got go through you've got to get your concealed

[00:21:46] license you've got to do all this you go take this course and do that and I'm like

[00:21:51] how am I not or is certifact this and that's where it goes. I think this is a good segue to talk

[00:21:58] a little bit about some of the comments you made about your sergeant major your battalion sergeant

[00:22:02] major in the books and it feels like it's a tale as old as time a senior NCO being much more concerned

[00:22:13] about the appearance of uniforms about haircuts about is the equipment was that are your humvees

[00:22:22] and your weapons are they clean and airy and I say clean not in that in terms of functionality

[00:22:28] but in terms of looking like it was spit-shined in some fucking way. It's fun and it's so devaluing

[00:22:36] to the soldiers that have to deal with that Danny's talked about that numerous times about

[00:22:42] whomever would show up at his cop in Afghanistan and that was the thing they cared about. We

[00:22:47] had guys that were working that were running off five or six hours sleep at night, didn't care

[00:22:51] about that it didn't have access to good places to wash their clothes so criticizing them for dirty

[00:22:57] uniforms was like what the fuck is your problem. Edit and it feels that they're never able to that

[00:23:07] sergeant majors and senior NCOs and military leaders all over who don't actively go through that

[00:23:13] as young troops as guys that don't have rank yet. It don't have power yet and see the ways that

[00:23:20] those can affect people but they've spent their entire careers caring about that kind of bullshit

[00:23:26] caring about haircuts caring about how long somebody's mustaches if everybody decides to grow one

[00:23:32] and that was one thing that pushed me away from staying in the military more long-term was that

[00:23:39] you come across so many of these leaders who just didn't give a fuck about you and whatever happened

[00:23:46] whatever criticism we had of them it just fell on entirely on deaf ears but tell me about that

[00:23:51] from your perspective how was that dealing with this guy and what what values do you think those kind

[00:23:57] of criticisms actually have. Yeah we always had the running joke that it was like they send you

[00:24:04] off to serge major school and pull your brain out and they put the serge major brain in and then

[00:24:09] from that point on all you care about is people running on your grass and NEO forms and stuff like that

[00:24:16] and it's more of no it's the type of person is the person who stays in law and comes a certain

[00:24:24] they've always been that type of person and there's yes is there something to be said for being

[00:24:29] clean for being sanitary and like you said making your weapons are clean, functional and things

[00:24:35] like that absolutely but yeah we're living we started the whole comp thing in Iraq we were the

[00:24:45] first cop and we called it bone Disneyland because that's that was the joke on the Disneyland

[00:24:53] and I didn't have running water I didn't have a place to shit I slept on freaking floor until they

[00:25:01] finally moved in these broken down bunks that we could put in there and even those probably were

[00:25:07] like infested with freaking bedbugs and everything else you better bet that you need to shave your face

[00:25:15] every single yeah if you just just like what are we doing here can't eat and clean myself

[00:25:23] and I think when we made the push to cop we stayed out there for four months straight and that's

[00:25:31] four months no shower no hot food sleeping in shifts and doing all of that kind of stuff and

[00:25:37] that's when they come through everything that you've done everything that you think is important to

[00:25:44] further these goals that they keep telling like we're here and we're doing this to protect people

[00:25:50] we're here and we're doing this for these goals and you think you're you know getting close to

[00:25:56] those goals or moving in that direction and then they come in and the only thing you get told is

[00:26:01] you all stink and you look like s in you need to maintain some sort of garrison look here just okay

[00:26:10] so none of this is serious see none of this is serious does that mean that the last three guys who

[00:26:16] died over the last month you don't care about that either like and it's just this weird like I

[00:26:26] don't understand how people can't have that level of empathy of wow okay these guys are getting hammered

[00:26:31] they're fighting doing all this crazy shit and I come here and instead of caring about this

[00:26:37] thing I should ask people like how are you doing yeah yeah but no no concept of what those folks have

[00:26:44] really been living through and that whole cop setup thing made it so much easier for a battalion

[00:26:50] headquarters to find a nice fob and then they would send out the commander's convoy to go to those

[00:26:56] different places and look at everything but those folks still eventually got back to a place that

[00:27:02] had decent showers and a chow hall and probably decent bunk beds to sleep in and all those kind of

[00:27:08] things and we had guys from my headquarters company who were working on college degrees while

[00:27:14] we were out living in cops and dealing with not I don't think I ever lived in anything as bad as

[00:27:20] what you described but it was not it was not a picnic either but they just don't they just don't

[00:27:26] see it they just don't see the value of it so it must have that I'm able to get mine I don't give

[00:27:33] a fuck about yours that kind of American mentality but also just to oh tiny bit in the defense of

[00:27:39] the sergeant majors is that's what they've been taught as we've been taught our whole careers

[00:27:45] that eventually they get to be the sergeant major and they can make their troops do ridiculous

[00:27:50] because they care about that and but they were they were more than happy to deal with all this

[00:27:56] shit and then they can hit you to give the shit out doesn't matter what kind of cycles it creates

[00:28:00] or how it affects those folks view of masculinity or anything in those lines so I had made a note

[00:28:10] that I wanted to ask you about I think it's officer of yours that got hit by a sniper and

[00:28:14] all right about that and then another guy who was paralyzed from the shot it was the same one so

[00:28:21] we had an individual who was killed during that incident PFC bird and lieutenant Ebar was

[00:28:29] guy on deck yeah and that's more dealing with those interior cultures in the military and

[00:28:39] it's another we went through six lieutenants during deployment and none of them died but

[00:28:47] it was like they would get injured and then immediately pulled from Liffrican

[00:28:51] field and we get placed with some nails and every single one of them we told him you just need

[00:28:57] to sit back and listen to us and just play lieutenant just be in charge but we'll do this

[00:29:03] and none of them wanted to do it wanted to reach out and touch the sun and five of them did

[00:29:10] it's another one our early time in Bakuba we had a mission that we were at an embassy

[00:29:17] and when you go to the the embassy they have people from that country

[00:29:21] in their own space and they're being respected as those these military officers would be respected

[00:29:28] back in the states they're going through saluting their officers everybody's dressed in

[00:29:33] embassy dress and all that kind of stuff and I think we just got the big head and wanted

[00:29:40] that treatment and he was a classic West pointer before we we done him right before we went on

[00:29:47] deployment and he leaked St. Kuwait and he was already trying to get one of the guys in article 15

[00:29:53] because we were out there running doing platoon formation running and one of the guys was

[00:29:59] falling behind he came back and told him why don't you keep up and he's like why don't you get a shot

[00:30:05] for your four times like me and then see if you can keep up and he didn't want that he was trying

[00:30:11] to give him an article 15 and do all this other kind of crazy stuff so rocky relationship

[00:30:16] Park yeah yeah he went from from my understanding of the whole thing they'll recount this from

[00:30:24] a witness testimony to me I was at cop or I was at the embassy at the time that and see it happen

[00:30:30] so this is what was reported to me was that he went up there asking for the private to salute him

[00:30:37] and once he did that salute on an OP there was a sniper waiting and then he got shot in the net

[00:30:45] and he became paralyzed from that but they also opened up with fire and killed people see berget

[00:30:52] that it's but it's a different culture people know that West Point culture in the military of

[00:30:59] you're going to go out and for your career they were putting a lot of these guys on combat tours

[00:31:06] and letting them serve the six months so that they could get the patch so that could say that

[00:31:11] they were they did the combat time and then pulling them off and promote them and

[00:31:17] taking them wherever they got it go there wasn't often that they would stay that long anyways

[00:31:22] but even then I think our put in had a special relationship with tenants going through six of them

[00:31:30] and there was a reason we were called the trouble we had everybody in the platoon had at least one

[00:31:36] article 15 so we're just a bunch of knuckleheads and dudes like that and that relationship was always

[00:31:44] the same it was like you guys come in we'll tell you what it is you either listen to us or you don't

[00:31:50] and if you don't you're on your own and did you all have a decent platoon sergeant to mitigate some

[00:31:56] of that shit kind of but the kind of division as it is much different than many of the units I've

[00:32:06] been in through the 173rd have been second ID in Korea well Paso and all of that and there's this just

[00:32:14] like over emphasis on the things that we've been talking about on how things look then how they

[00:32:22] actually are and the cab is throwing them peraded for every other week for no reason just show

[00:32:29] shit off and do this and that's where this title came from because we were constantly saying this

[00:32:35] is just another dog pony show we're just doing this for show we're just doing this for looks

[00:32:40] this doesn't really matter what the outcome is they just want to make it look like we're doing

[00:32:46] and at that time there was this like push I ran needed to be a success and that's part of that

[00:32:53] like surge mentality we need to get all these people here we need to engage in these ways

[00:32:59] and it needs to be important how we look and so first part of our deployment you know up to the

[00:33:06] cop really rough and that was a lot more hands off and you guys just do what you need to do

[00:33:12] once we established that and we did all the hard work then all of these people from division

[00:33:19] and all over the army just descended upon us and then everything had to be looking right

[00:33:24] everything had to be correct coming in and they're like oh we can't call this cop

[00:33:29] bone Disneyland we're gonna change it to cop atom these routes are the same that you guys

[00:33:33] are calling them we're going to call them red, blue and green we're gonna take your deal

[00:33:37] you can't be coming up on the net saying you're trouble maker too you know it's kind of

[00:33:41] be blue red or white blue things like that and so there was this we need to sanitize everything

[00:33:47] do and make it presentable yeah it's incredible the amount of cruelty that can be put on soldiers

[00:33:56] just by principle of how the order you do something it's as small as things in touch in on those

[00:34:03] on those points let's take a little bit and talk about your comic book so it's called

[00:34:07] tales your figure handle on there is tales of nihilism right and then the the ballot of Philip

[00:34:14] Kershner am I saying that right yeah please tell the folks about it yeah originally the whole

[00:34:21] thing was just called tales of nihilism and that's formed and molded into coming like the publication

[00:34:28] house for an ongoing anthology and we have the main series the ballot of Philip Kershner is what

[00:34:34] we're working on now and then we run like short stories and do comic strips and things like that

[00:34:41] and all that falls under that that tales of nihilism deal but that that was being an artist

[00:34:50] and engaging in that was a piece of myself that I let go when I joined the military I used to be

[00:34:57] the kid who was always doing the theater choir and the art stuff and that kind of stuff and once I

[00:35:04] turned 18 it was like at the whole 9-11 and everything it was like all right I'm gonna do this call

[00:35:11] to the adventuring go to that and so I disabused myself of that part of myself I realized that's not

[00:35:19] cohesive to this culture working well within here and I need to do some personal changes to make

[00:35:25] it through this and there's always a little bit like I was always got a drawing while I'm sitting

[00:35:32] there taking notes and stuff like that and on my humbye shield I drew like a combat monkey and

[00:35:38] till the start of the show it made me think of that and things like that we have a freaking room

[00:35:47] in the cop like we just had murals from all the ash we had darker nades and there so you would

[00:35:54] draw all over the walls and draw a crazy stuff in there and so yeah it was like got a lot of feelings

[00:36:01] a lot of things to say and also really like art so let me reconnect with that part of myself

[00:36:09] and I started drawing again and painting and then kept having the same feelings and conversations

[00:36:18] with people in talking about how tough it really is in society and how hard it is for people to

[00:36:24] make it nowadays and this idea these dreams that we've been sold growing in becoming adults and

[00:36:30] getting older and a lot of it just not coming to fruition and I was like all right let me see what

[00:36:37] I can do here and it just so happened that me and my wife were playing the Arkham Asylum Batman

[00:36:43] video game and I'm playing as Batman and I started walking around the whole asylum and I'm like wow

[00:36:50] this place is awful like where's ocean who's the health and spirit and going on and then I just

[00:36:57] said it and I was like me and could do so much more and be a hero for Gotham if he just used his

[00:37:03] Bruce Wayne personally they'll actually make Gotham work and I was like okay that's the story I

[00:37:11] is this idea of hero worship and this idea of these godlike entities these tropes are going to

[00:37:17] save society and we need to believe in these people into these things they're going to take us

[00:37:23] to the finish line and I was like that's how things work no it's just not reality and so I was like

[00:37:31] all right I'm going to take this idea and dissect it and prefer the idea of these superheroes

[00:37:37] and show people just how bad it would be to live in a world of super heroes everybody's always

[00:37:44] taking it from oh there's some collateral damage that goes on or you might get a story or two

[00:37:49] pucks where they talk about some non-superhero type characters and struggling with the things that

[00:37:55] superheroes do but I was like we're really going to get into the weeds and I wanted to just be

[00:38:01] average guy normal dude and he wakes up goes to work and does everything like everybody else

[00:38:07] and just how bad would it get in your car a superhero fight happens on the freeway

[00:38:13] that's gonna make your insurance premium go up and then you're showing up late the work and

[00:38:18] how many times do you get to use the superhero was battling on the freeway excuse and then

[00:38:23] fired and then your waters get turned off because the supervillain is like doing this in the water

[00:38:30] and I wanted to take the idea and say okay here's how bad it is to struggle now let's put

[00:38:37] these superheroes up no it does it it presents a whole host of questions about how we really

[00:38:45] view heroes and how you view cop and leaders and politicians and other stuff like that but my

[00:38:53] one observation I made a while ago and I still haven't disproven this but I think it's important

[00:39:01] that I see Batman as the government. Batman is this amicable or I don't know who you call

[00:39:09] the example to the innocent people that he's doing these good things he's helping people out

[00:39:16] like you said but so much lower and nastier than if the billionaire would just put his money towards

[00:39:23] making his city a better place but now he is the and in very much in the way that we see

[00:39:29] America's written on the world stage as the indispensable nation well Bruce Wayne Batman

[00:39:35] has made himself the indispensable superhero he doesn't have to have specific powers we all know

[00:39:41] that just by his own inertia of being a person that he can get things done but who exactly is that

[00:39:48] fair to why does do those people that do those bad things have to pay that awful price

[00:39:54] before they get to the courtroom where the justice is actually supposed to be dispensed

[00:40:00] and I know that there's been but it's been more recent comic book stories and stuff where Batman has

[00:40:05] beat someone up and they got off and the decision only just stands there looking at him as I can't

[00:40:10] do anything this happened I can't not acknowledge that it happened and

[00:40:16] and this person obviously can't still can't get punished but back to the indispensable

[00:40:22] person for a minute that the we Bruce does all the things that we think the government does he

[00:40:31] spies on people he invades their privacy he is willing to go through their homes by himself without

[00:40:37] there but whomever just because he is world's greatest detective or whatever but it goes back

[00:40:42] to the pedestal thing we were talking about earlier that we've created and we just look up

[00:40:47] and it's great there he is he's gonna protect us he's gonna do this and that and this and that

[00:40:51] and it doesn't work that way there are no rules that cover what he can do there's no kind of a

[00:40:57] review committee or anything on when Batman beats you to a bloody pulp and it's not like he's innocent

[00:41:03] it's not like he hasn't done things that normal people would look at and that's fucked up man it's just

[00:41:09] I was gonna ask you though what are the kind of comic books do you like to what do you read these days

[00:41:14] so i'm a huge Alan Morpheon so i'm definitely started my comic

[00:41:19] history with the watchman and all that and that's what really inspired a lot the creative

[00:41:25] processes that i have because i was that kid growing up reading Superman and Batman and Spider-Man

[00:41:32] and stuff like that and Spider-Man was about as dark as it got on those comics and then I wanted

[00:41:38] I picked up a friggin issue of the watchman and i was just like wait you you can tell stories like

[00:41:44] this in comics kill this is profound this is this should be studied in college setting the same thing

[00:41:52] they're talking about these great writers in the 18 and early 1900s this is the same level

[00:41:59] and they're going over very deep and contradictory ideas and things are difficult to discuss

[00:42:06] currently i'm trying to get a hold of the miracle man by and do that one but yeah

[00:42:12] read the walking dead when that came out and also watch the boys and stuff like that

[00:42:18] but that idea is not even going into what you call it like the alter heroes or

[00:42:24] the kind of like punisher style guys where they're supposed to still be a hero it's

[00:42:31] those type of stories to me are more full and more they make you think and it's they sit in the

[00:42:38] watchman who watches the watchman how are they able to do the things they do and get away with it

[00:42:45] and what level of culpability do we have as a society for letting these things happen when

[00:42:51] getting to this point yeah i dig Alan Moore i he his way of bringing you full circle into those

[00:42:58] things is just exceptional the watchman for the killing joke is another one that's a really great

[00:43:04] one v for vendetta as well it's also one of my favorite ones it yeah i i i had never read

[00:43:12] the actual graphic novel before i saw the film and of course you go online and look at that that

[00:43:17] Alan Moore has some very specific nasty words about what happened to the film but they did they

[00:43:22] completely read the anarchy aspect of it and let it just a movie about superheroes and it does

[00:43:29] include some of the criticisms that he had but it's not nearly as pointed as it would be otherwise

[00:43:35] i think this is a good place for us to wrap it up for today i thank you so much for coming and

[00:43:41] sharing your time with me and talking about your recent work but when is your when is your book

[00:43:45] when his troublemaker supposed to be coming out to be able to be read so we have that schedule for

[00:43:51] publication next march um i think by january we're supposed to have everything edited up and

[00:43:59] we'll be putting up on the blue ear book side a link for pre pre-orders and stuff like that

[00:44:07] but the tales and isles and that's completely open we digitally publish on global comics

[00:44:13] and all the comics have a link that you can go to and get a physical publication of it

[00:44:19] and trying to think and then whenever conventions come up we post up on the fix book

[00:44:25] take it we're get this conventions and you can get comics there as well sounds great man

[00:44:30] i will i'll make sure we put a link to global comics down with the show notes if people can find

[00:44:35] get right to where your stuff sat it's a great comic book i've really enjoyed reading it i'm excited

[00:44:41] for more and i hope we'll have you back again maybe around the time the book comes out we can talk

[00:44:46] about it a little bit and definitely promote it was there anything else that you wanted to

[00:44:50] throw out there today yeah i'd be remiss by forgot also with the publication

[00:44:56] tales and isles and up on global comics and physical publication we offer an ad space

[00:45:02] in those comics me and my writer Joseph Miles pitman those comics the ads go fun the conventions

[00:45:09] and the publications if things like that and it's a great opportunity for anybody who has a small

[00:45:14] business especially you've earned own business to advertise with us and help other friends and

[00:45:20] artists sounds great man sounds great yeah i will i'll make sure i link specifically to that so

[00:45:26] people can find and find what they're looking for and thanks everyone for joining us today on

[00:45:30] for sunn a hill i'll be all take care see you next time money is tight these days for everyone

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[00:46:47] episodes at www.fortrassanahill.com skepticism is one's best armor never forget it we'll see you next

[00:46:57] time

[00:47:04] and listen to my song

[00:47:11] i hope you pay attention

[00:47:17] i will not detain you long