Judith Norman on the Gaza offensive – Ep 146

[00:00:00] When I made it to my home place, I found trial for God will.

[00:00:11] Where once, lay a shining city stood a fortress on a hill.

[00:00:23] This is Fortress On A Hill with Henry Danny Kagan, Giovanni, Shiloh and Manisha.

[00:00:30] Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, podcast about US foreign policy anti-militarism, skepticism and the American way of war.

[00:00:38] I'm Giovanni, thank you for being with us today.

[00:00:41] With me today is my co-host, Anisha. Anisha, how are you today?

[00:00:46] I'm doing all right, hanging in there. I'm ready for this.

[00:00:49] All right. All right.

[00:00:52] So here we go. So it's been over three weeks since the October 7th, daring surprise military assault by a mass-led coalition struck its really positions outside of the separation wall of Gaza.

[00:01:02] Since then, the idea has unleashed an ensemble of aerial bombardments on the 2.3 million residents living in a small, besieged enclave of Gaza, which most people regard as the world's largest open-air prison killing estimated amount of

[00:01:18] 57,000 people mostly civilians and what most of the world sees as a genocide.

[00:01:24] Israel has cut full water and electrical power to the enclave and has stopped humanitarian.

[00:01:30] And I tell you, I stopped humanitarian aid from entering several resolutions have been presented at the United Nations Security Council calling for these fires each time the United States has vetoed them while hundreds of thousands of people around the world take to the streets to demand a ceasefire still the carnage continues.

[00:01:47] President Joe Biden has responded by rushing American military assets to theater, which includes two aircraft carriers and several battleships and asking Congress for an extra $106 billion package to fund both Israel and Ukraine.

[00:02:01] As the situation continues to escalate thousands of American Jews mobilizing hundreds of cities across the country to organize large protests and demonstrations demanding and into the carnage and adjust peace.

[00:02:12] Here to tell us more, we're joined by Dritt Norman.

[00:02:16] Dritt Norman, how are you?

[00:02:18] Very good. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

[00:02:21] Blinon right now and you've been doing a lot as well with Jewish force for peace, doing a lot of actions on the ground and yourself.

[00:02:30] How are you holding up with all of this and personally, like your health, your wellbeing? How are you really?

[00:02:40] How thanks you. That's a very kind question. I've been better. I have friends in Gaza and I'm worried about them. I have, I know people in the West Bank. I'm worried about them because that's an area that Israel is attacking.

[00:03:01] It's escalated the violence radically in the West Bank and there's not a lot of attention to that because all eyes are in Gaza.

[00:03:09] And I know people in Israel who are amongst the sort of kid, why don't know personally but I have friends or friends who have been affected by the violence there.

[00:03:20] So it's a lot to take. I'm finding a lot of comfort in organizing around this issue though, that's, that's, it's helped me find a community and it feels good to be taking action.

[00:03:34] Thank you for sharing that with us and humanizing yourself.

[00:03:39] And when you talk about your organizing, can you tell our listeners more about who you are as an organizer more about Jewish voice for peace and the work that you all are doing?

[00:03:51] Absolutely. So I'm organizing with several groups. I'm with Jewish voice for peace but also a local group called San Antonio for Justice in Palestine.

[00:04:02] I entered this organizing area as a Jewish person because I mean Israel has this claim to be the Jewish state.

[00:04:13] It's basically annexed Judaism, it's weaponized Judaism and uses it as a tool to cover up defend and justify and said Lord colonialist policies.

[00:04:26] And so the thought behind Jewish voice for peace and Jewish oriented activist spaces in general is that we have a distinctive role to play and pushing back against these Israeli claims.

[00:04:41] I know a lot of people are get confused about this about this Jewish.

[00:04:49] I don't want to call it a conflict because that implies two sides but could get confused about the nature of the occupation.

[00:04:55] Because on the one hand it does seem like things are bad for Palestine, but on the other hand, you know Jews have suffered immense violence over the course of centuries.

[00:05:07] I mean culminating in the Holocaust and so if Israel is a place of Jewish safety, why should the world object? And that's that's a myth that I think that Jewish people are in a position to really diffuse.

[00:05:22] The accusation of anti-Semitism is a vile one, but it's used against Israel's critics a lot.

[00:05:30] And Jewish people have a role to play and standing up against that criticism and diffusing the myths that it's based on.

[00:05:39] Thank you for that and thank you for correcting my language on that I think it's really important that we are precise in how we describe.

[00:05:47] What is happening so I really appreciate that and turning it over to you Giovanni for the next.

[00:05:54] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:56] Please tell us what you know is currently happening Gaza and the larger Palestinian territories.

[00:06:04] What is the context people miss in here?

[00:06:07] Yeah, absolutely. So I mean there's a big picture in a small picture right the sort of big long lasting context is said work colonialism that there is this land called Palestine.

[00:06:19] There's been this land called Palestine for many thousands of years.

[00:06:23] It's been administered by a number of employers, but in the middle of the 20th century it.

[00:06:33] It became the home to a settler clomial movement known as Zionism which claimed that it was.

[00:06:43] The place where it was going to be the country of.

[00:06:47] It was going to be country for Jews, it was going to be a place of Jewish safety.

[00:06:51] It was going to be the landing spell out for the refugees from World War two and from the anti-Semitic violence that was accelerating over the course of the 20th century on.

[00:07:03] Now the Jews who were escaping that violence by large wanted to come to the United States, right?

[00:07:08] That seems there was history of Jews coming to the United States my relatives had come to the United States and that was the preferred landing place for the majority of Jews fleeing.

[00:07:19] But were presented because of anti-Semitic immigration policies and had to go to Palestine where you know under the guidance and control of colonial powers.

[00:07:33] They were encouraged to take a colonial position on their presence there on and and and formed the state of Israel, which is a settler quality on the land of the indigenous Palestinians.

[00:07:48] Since then, there's been on they've had a will to just conflate Zionism and Judaism right.

[00:07:56] So Zionism is the on doctrine that the Jews should have an ethno state in historic Palestine.

[00:08:06] It's a colonialist political doctrine.

[00:08:09] Many Jews rejected, but it's enabled Israel to sort of clay on credibility on Jewish grounds and it's meant that people who object to Israel get called anti-Semitic.

[00:08:22] And again, I got into this activism on the grounds that as Jews we have a special role in in objecting to that conflation.

[00:08:36] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:08:38] Yes, you are right.

[00:08:40] Any time people bring up or try to ask questions at least or you know or just say something, just a mild criticism of actions taken by the state of Israel and the government is real.

[00:08:52] The automatic Jews of being anti-Semitic if you're not, if you're not Jewish right I've also seen people you online who are Jewish and takes the the critical role, critical take on Israel, but they also get attacked by by people under a different different.

[00:09:13] And it's a very negative.

[00:09:15] So yeah, so yeah, can you walk us through a little bit what was happening in Gaza prior to a total seven or not only in Gaza but the larger Palestinian territory was prior to a total seven and what kind of led to this situation.

[00:09:36] So Gaza since, for 75 years but mostly since 2005 has been a sealed off on clave in which in which the Palestinian population, which is now reached 2.3 million, mostly refugees has been enclosed.

[00:09:58] It's been described accurately, I believe is a concentration camp or the largest open air prison.

[00:10:05] It's been under Israeli occupation and sea.

[00:10:10] Israel controls the borders controls what goods come in and out controls the economy and periodically every couple of years I'm subject to car carpet bombing campaign.

[00:10:25] Well, so we have in enclose largely youth highly populated, highly densified hyper traumatized population living in this land.

[00:10:40] Because Israel controls the materials that come in and out after they destroyed the water infrastructure and the aquifer.

[00:10:50] They refused to allow equipment to be brought in to repair it and so 96% of the gas and drinking waters contaminated.

[00:11:01] They destroyed the sewage plan and so the gauzeans had no alternative but to dump sewage into the Mediterranean which just destroyed their fishing resources.

[00:11:12] If they go far enough into the Mediterranean to find fish that are contaminated, then Israel shoots at them.

[00:11:19] If they go near the fence that their perimeter Israel shoots at them.

[00:11:26] If they so it's Israel controls the amount of food that goes into the territory, chems the number of calories that it needs to provide so as to escape the accusation of starving the population under international law.

[00:11:43] The controls the amount of medicine that goes and I visited it got it twice once in 2015 or once in 2016.

[00:11:50] I toward some of the hospitals they have the medicine is radically insufficient for a population like that.

[00:12:00] The materials that are supplied are radically insufficient and so there's a population that was enclosed, ignored and you know left basically to die.

[00:12:13] That's been the case for almost over 20 years.

[00:12:18] And the residents of Gaza have tried various nonviolent means of resistance to try to draw attention to their plight.

[00:12:29] A couple of years ago they began on nonviolent campaign called the Great March of return where gauzeans would come to the border and it's not really border they'd come to the perimeter where Israel has caged them.

[00:12:44] They demonstrate they dance they eat they celebrate their culture and they'd object to the fact that they were taged.

[00:12:54] You have to understand that the siege began in 20th 2005.

[00:13:02] And so the majority of gauze young people advanced to majority of gauze young people have never been outside they're descended from refugees.

[00:13:10] They can see the villages that their grandparents were thrown out of in a foundation of the state of Israel.

[00:13:20] But they've never been able to visit they've never been able to see yet.

[00:13:25] So a couple of years ago they started the Great March of return and Israel shot their legs.

[00:13:30] They used experimental bullets that would explode inside of them to cause unprecedented amounts of bone damage the doctors had seen nothing like it.

[00:13:39] They kept demonstrating is you'll kept shooting their legs you go into Gaza you'll see young men all over the place who have limbs amputated because of that.

[00:13:51] All the great March of return was an attempt to raise awareness for what was going on in Gaza who knows what's going on in Gaza.

[00:14:00] The media is forgotten about them it's a concentration care that nobody you know nobody knows about and seems like nobody cares about.

[00:14:08] The people of Gaza have media they can see you know that the extent to which the world cares about them.

[00:14:16] And it's hardly at all.

[00:14:19] And so on October 7th an armed group of the political group, Hamas, a burst out of the cage unexpectedly and right next to the concentration care some Israeli peace nicks were having a rave.

[00:14:36] Well, they were innocent civilians having a rave two kilometers from a concentration camp.

[00:14:43] There's just so much going on in there.

[00:14:46] I'll tell you let me tell you when I went to Gaza in 2015.

[00:14:51] It was like it.

[00:14:54] It was an environment in which the population was living lives of you know immense trauma they've been through I mean again in addition to the sort of structural violence of living under this sort of deprivation Israel carpet bombs that every couple of years and people have nowhere to go.

[00:15:13] There's nowhere safe is real bomb schools, you lend facilities hospitals there's no one never safe to go.

[00:15:21] The population is not only deprived but vapor traumatized it disrupts the family structures because pink children feel like their parents can't defend them.

[00:15:34] And so it it pollutes the family structures there's nobody to heal him psychologically because the psychologists have all been through this they're not just experienced secondary trauma by listening to their patients.

[00:15:47] Primary trauma and so not they're not PTSD because there's no post because nothing changes the conditions that would prevent another carpet bombing or just don't don't occur.

[00:16:02] They never know when it's going to happen again and so they've lived like that for almost 20 years.

[00:16:08] When I was in Gaza we got we were able to leave Gaza but it was unusual that we were there we were able to leave and right when we left on the border we went to what was basically an Israeli denies families were there eating pancakes and laughing.

[00:16:30] This was right outside of a concentration camp that it's clear that the country I mean Israel I don't know that they don't know where to.

[00:16:40] Here is just sort of it's just dropped out of discourse it's been invisible eyes so militants from Hamas which is the governing body in Israel, which has an undertakings terrorist tactics broke out of the cage and.

[00:16:58] Mass occurred hundreds of people at this rave mass occurred hundreds of Israeli civilians in the nearby towns on it took 200 hostages on I guess I mean it's horrible violent resistance is horrible like this I want to put it into the context of the people of Gaza fried non violent resistance.

[00:17:27] For years so it was basically a question of whether you're going to die silently or die you know that violently.

[00:17:37] So after that happened I mean we also what happened you know Israel sort of learned attack this is horrible we need to destroy Hamas and started to.

[00:17:47] And started to rebound Gaza with you know intensified ferocity on and a couple days ago they shut off all telecommunications to and from the Gaza strip.

[00:18:01] People I know there were being where were people I know with relatives inside were hysterical right thing you the bombing was going on they know that that point was four or 5,000 people are killed and they couldn't get a hold of their relatives.

[00:18:16] And apparently they switched back the telecommunications because the US asked them to or told them to.

[00:18:24] I don't know what sort of communications goes on under that and radar there but clearly the US is able to the US has its finger on this US could stop this if it wanted to.

[00:18:37] And here we are well there's been no effective response to the Israeli bombing the casualties are wrapping up we're seeing pictures of and absolutely devastated as a civilian population and we're just waiting to see what the end game here is.

[00:18:56] Here in the United States to try just like you mentioned earlier, which is especially in the United States they the narrative as you know we just been attacked.

[00:19:05] The tried to endure memories of 9-11 the tried to the try to frame it as Israel's pro charbor and I just pretty much to to conjure sympathy into conjure consent create consent in the United States for what is about to vice about to happen if you if you go back to the 9-11.

[00:19:25] The second 9-11 at the original son 9-11 but the second 9-11 of 2021 what that they just unleashed a lot of violence that they pretty much destabilize whole region attacked.

[00:19:39] Gums were all thrown mills of people were killed you know eight like seven eight.

[00:19:46] Under word tacked they are continued to be attacked to this day so so when they trained it to 9-11 and back then I remember back then I was in the military I was still soldier back then because of the images of the towers you know they were able to to to generate that consent.

[00:20:08] Within the American population that you know all bits of off you know just going to you know all just going by everybody you know and I was a sentiment at the time in the United States and within the military I mean I was surrounded by people that has this psychotic attitude towards Muslims back then.

[00:20:28] And I feel that this again bringing up 9-11 again after the total seven bring up brother and every day I think this was also a way to carry the population in Israel but the Western population the target of the Western population to accept what the government with the state of Israel is about to do.

[00:20:49] You got a toss there are many show yeah I have a lot but I want to say I know in the intro you had mentioned around 7000 assassinations essentially of the Palestinians and I think now the I'm I have Al Jazeera up while we're talking and I'm I think it's now members of the murder have grown.

[00:21:18] Even more over 8000 now and so what you're describing in terms of the narrative and Judith what you've described with the historic I don't even know the right word to call it.

[00:21:39] It seems just like a long annihilation.

[00:21:43] Yeah yeah well I think one of the similarities with 9-11 is I mean I remember 9-11 happening and one of the things is that we were sort of like and we were there was a demand for us to be stupid right it was sort of like that's our patriotic activity stupid I remember them you know this like all the media had to say that the people who project the planes and flew them into the buildings 9-11 work were powered we all had to say that they were.

[00:22:12] On you know I mean this is a horrible thing to do these are clearly people who who do horrible things what I wouldn't say is cowardice right sort of like it's the sort of like the one thing that doesn't apply but that was the one thing we were all forced to say this is a cowardly act cowardly like that that's like the one bad thing that doesn't fit in terms of a description of this right so but but it was required to say that they were.

[00:22:41] So we're sort of like forced to be stupid right we were forced to say things that we knew were stupid as a mark of our patriotism in this case too it's sort of like you know the Pima satat you know which I certainly you know is sort of like horrible right that it came out of nowhere right that we were for just sort of like you know pretend that there's no context for this and if we if we suggest that there's a context for this then where you know I mean I'm not sure if we can do that.

[00:23:09] So this then where you know we're not sympathetic or anti-Semitic or something like that on and to this enforced stupidity as a way in which consent is manufactured it's like we all see this we all see that you know the people who bombed the trade world trade towers you know we're horrible on so many ways but just not not you know not not hourly sort of like we were we can all see this but we're forced to pretend we don't sort of emperor has no plans we know that you know the Pima

[00:23:39] Palestinians have been on to this sort of like vicious, brutal you know genocide all the structural violence for 75 years but somehow we're forced to sort of like pretend that we haven't seen that.

[00:23:52] It's a really it's a bizarre maybe a story I mean what's bizarre about is it works right what why don't why why are we being shut down for saying there's a context for which this has happened yet

[00:24:06] it's invisibilized but again you know I left I left a concentration camp and you know yours way there's a denys so the invisibilizing was ongoing it's on it's stunning.

[00:24:21] What you were mentioned earlier about you know how media how the media just pretty much manifest that matter factually narrative just create this narrative and just and just stupid five people right and like you mentioned earlier you give you gave a ticket to exactly one big example about the great much return which was a peaceful demonstration they were going down people are going down you know by because they were and they were and they were and the thing that they were I was already

[00:24:50] remember that I was in 2002 2001 and they were going down by snipers I mean they weren't even close to to security force I mean the claim of I felt threatened or I felt for my life that's why I shung down that was that I didn't apply here because they were gone down by snipers I believe about two over 200 people are going down or more

[00:25:10] but again in the media every time this is an opposite violence coming from the Palestinian side because of violence like you mentioned the violence ongoing on a daily basis from these really side but when it's an opposite violence comes from the Palestinian side there the media always asked this question where is the Palestinian Gandhi where is the Palestinian and MLK

[00:25:33] you know why can't you know why can't they just you know what can they have cities etc such as I remember Thomas Freeman framing it that way you know if if if the past deal be there was a Palestinian Gandhi then the world would more reset their message you have any thoughts on that.

[00:25:47] Well I was in the West Bank I met a man named Issa Amaro and he was a genius of nonviolent resistance he's organ of the fight he's he's helped organize groups in hebron where he lives on youth against settlements just all sorts of you know his house his his presence is just sort of like a hub for nonviolent resistance I learned so much from his.

[00:26:17] From sitting in his home and listening to him I mean nonviolent resistance as sort of like community sort of mutual aid right so just how the community can take care of itself and sort of to diffuse violence to diffuse the need for you know that services that is real blocking just just he's just a genius about it.

[00:26:40] On October 8th the day after the Hamas attack in southern Israel he was kidnapped by settlers brought into Israeli military custody tortured for 10 hours and dumped out no reason they just rounded him up tortured him and dumped him out.

[00:27:06] There's the Palestinian Gandhi and that's what happens to him there's there's Palestinian Gandhi's in every in every village.

[00:27:14] They're being they're being rounded up tortured and dumped out as an is an example for everybody to understand that this is what happens to you.

[00:27:24] I mean the nonviolent resistance movement is so it's so threatening to Israel right so Israel doesn't the threat of a good example here the Israel really just wants that wants to shut that sort of thing down.

[00:27:37] I mean a good example of that is part of the nonviolent resistance that Palestinian civil society has come up with is this sort of call for world boycott divestment and sanctions against Israel.

[00:27:53] Right so we have this through the and method for nonviolent resistance that can sort of engage people internationally.

[00:28:02] And it there are anti BDS laws I think the majority of the US states right so it gets criminalized to take non violent resist the action nonviolent resistance sound you know all these sort of like state mechanisms for suppressing nonviolent resistance.

[00:28:23] It creates a media vacuum and then there's sort of this cross well where is it whereas it's like it's here and fear but you've made it illegal you put it in jail.

[00:28:35] But it's not a genuine question, where's the Palestinian Gandhi because if it was a genuine question it would have been answered amply you know thousands of times over it's not a genuine question.

[00:28:46] It's a way of posing Palestinians in a certain light.

[00:28:50] I wanted to touch on a couple of things, but I want to relate it all to to what you've just described you this with the BDS movement i've been a longtime supporter of it former president of psychologists for social responsibility.

[00:29:04] And once we.

[00:29:07] It took a long time to get them to agree to support BDS and then the backlash was immediate and so earlier you were talking about near to essentially you were talking about near to warfare my dissertation was all about that.

[00:29:21] And it was about uncovering how the American psychological association is basically the research and development wing of US is slightly psychological warfare starting with division 19 which is the division for basically military psychology the father of military psychology praised the Nazis.

[00:29:44] For their use of psychologists in the field during World War two it's it's disgusting and and what's really horrific as well as the way that Zionism is dominant in the American psychological association even within the division of peace psychology.

[00:30:03] And many psychologists many of my palsy and colleagues have received as you have no doubt experienced yourself and witnessed yourself.

[00:30:15] Horrific.

[00:30:17] Disgusting treatment from psychologists and to put the icing on the cake the American psychological association props itself up as serving humanity and one of their largest exports is military psychology and they host international conferences for military psychology et cetera they work very closely with the Israeli forces.

[00:30:40] And bring all that up because when you bring up the narratives warfare done on the part of the media and do you find that in your work.

[00:30:53] And the construction of the counter narrative through truths telling.

[00:30:58] Through particularly your role as a Jewish person in all of the labor that you're doing alongside others in concert with the non violent resistance of the palsy and people.

[00:31:12] Do you find that it's that it's working the cultural narrative that people inside the US essentially settler colonists inside the US take on to themselves I think is is the priming of the ground, you know like the fertilizer for the seeds that then the Israeli government are.

[00:31:33] Planting through US media planting through you know NATO media planting through all these all these spaces and so I think you have.

[00:31:43] A connection with settler identity and a connection with settler innocent.

[00:31:48] I don't know if you find that to be true absolutely.

[00:31:53] Yeah i'm in Texas I have settler identity that you know I have this is the i'm part of a settler colonial project you know it where I live as well.

[00:32:03] I think a distinctive difference with Israel though um is the on the claim to settler innocence gets well.

[00:32:14] The settler's originally were victims from the holocaust right that that's that and that get that makes it really confusing you know it makes it much more difficult to sort of intervene as time goes on right as holocaust memory fades as Israel sort of like you know you sort of overcomes the identity.

[00:32:34] You know the sort of Israel has been working I've talked to people who sort of are involved with the K through 12 education in Israel and the nature of holocaust rise in there is real is sort of like weaponized holocaust memory yeah and Holocaust studies to try to because this is the claim to settler innocence it's like this is you know what we were victims as well yeah.

[00:32:57] which doesn't address a sort of you are victims of germany rise in here you are taking somebody else's land so there's a disconnect there but it's like to sort of point that out right.

[00:33:07] But as you know 80 years on from the holocaust Israel has become sort of like really shrill about sort of cultivating holocaust memory yeah in.

[00:33:20] But goodness I mean my relatives are killing the holocaust I want holocaust memory but here I have it being sort of like cultivated and weaponized by a group of people for this you know for the pro yeah to settler colonialist content right it's more difficult to intervene in that narrative than it is internal island right it's sort of like the white people sort of like you didn't belong here right but with the Israelis were refugee population too.

[00:33:49] it's delicate but it has to be done it needs to be done and at this point I mean honestly you know this is we're talking about Zionism as a settler colonial project you digress some and on is you know a religion in which you know NASA violence has been part of our historical past you know I think I think they're ought to be you know an understanding of that assembly around that.

[00:34:14] But rather than sort of like sitting with that and using that as a leverage to sort of you know understand suffering more generally that memory has been sort of weaponized into rhetorical support for the settler colonial project.

[00:34:31] And it's yeah as a Jewish person I feel like my identity has been hija in this way.

[00:34:41] I have two more follow up questions if that's okay Giovanni and if that's okay with you Judith yeah so immediately my my heart wants to hold you and and i'm curious to know how can people best support persons like yourselves who are caught in this weaponized state basically and and you.

[00:35:04] You have that historical grief and you have this other world injury attached to you forced upon you by by Zionism by the Israeli state by their their their violence um how can people be there for you and others who are in your similar position while we're simultaneously holding space.

[00:35:28] That's a very kind question thank you i think it's important.

[00:35:34] strangely you know it's sort of like we have a situation in which on Jewish grief has has displaced Palestinian grief right you know we have a situation which sort of like Israeli grief and is is the loudest i don't want.

[00:35:50] I don't want to reproduce that situation where sort of like you know my problem sort of like finding community in this on.

[00:36:02] In some way obscures the fact that you know God is being genocide is right.

[00:36:08] I feel like you know my Jewish history as belonging to a group of people who are sort of like stateless and dispossessed on puts me into an identity with the Palestinians right or stateless and dispossessed i feel like that's where my Judaism goes to not the sort of.

[00:36:29] The sort of hyper militaristic state of Israel, but to put to this other people i it's so important to me that that suffering be the be centered on and that problem be centered i've watched in the movements as sort of like.

[00:36:47] I mean it's started with the sort of like Jews have a sort of distinctive voice in this because we can sort of navigate through some of these kinds of anti-semitism that again you know it's emphasized too much that can become a way of centering Jewish voices in this right can become another sort of like a Jewish supremacist move that again reproduces the dynamics of the struggle.

[00:37:10] And I have struggled to understand that in myself right and to try to say that what I need is to be accountable to my Palestinian allies right they they understand what's going on.

[00:37:24] That dynamic tends to get reproduced in the piece movement in so so there's there's Israeli soldiers who have been you know fought with the IDF you know I mean as 18 year olds who had to write they see what they're doing they're horrified and they join on.

[00:37:43] You know the sort of peace groups like breaking the silence right and they talk about you know we went to Gaza we did these horrible things here here's our cruel interest and.

[00:37:53] And the lack says attendance you go oh my goodness you know you're so brave you know you disraeli is you know you really know you know you're you're speaking the truth yeah.

[00:38:04] And again that's sort of like Israeli society is very sort of like you know worships the military right and here you see a sort of like Israel left worshipping the military as well right sort of like these soldiers who sort of like you know spoken out you know thank God for them.

[00:38:20] So we haven't really gotten beyond worshipping the military and we haven't really gotten beyond the sort of like you know the centrally Jewish voices.

[00:38:30] If you want to know what's gone in about Gaza thanks the people and guys right don't ask these soldiers who have said I mean they have a story to tell my God you know their sympathy their courage you know this is real courage they've done it right.

[00:38:43] But the role that they play sometimes in terms of sort of like you know left media is a little bit exaggerated and feeds into sort of like.

[00:38:52] If a Jew saying it then it really must be to the case if a soldier is saying that then you know that's really important yeah.

[00:38:59] The voices that need to be sort of centered in this are the voices of the pales to millions of billions.

[00:39:06] Thank you for your jump in Giovanni I wanted you write my second question and thank you.

[00:39:12] So you were talking about the boycott divestment and sanctions movement which we all refer to as BDS and I am seeing an uptick on social media of people inside the United States becoming more and more aware people who weren't aware before are more aware now and they're sharing the boycott list and they're really boosting the BDS calls for support.

[00:39:41] So some people are talking about we need to be the US as well.

[00:39:49] And particularly you can see signs in in protest calling for an end to US support to Israel and so I thought is and my question to you is if we see ideas proposed for a national strike which would be one way of removing taxpayer money from USA to to Israeli occupation.

[00:40:10] And genocide of Palestinians and do you see the potential for that to happen in the US do you see any opportunities to build the level of mutual aid that would be necessary to sustain a long term national strike and truly impact the US's ability to support Israeli's genocide award.

[00:40:34] No, I'm sorry, I just haven't seen so I think that things in terms of this sort of Palestine movement in the United States are getting better right on operating on a campus and I see that you know the what we're able to say now is better than what we could have said two years ago.

[00:40:54] So I think the number of students who are expressing sympathy with Palestine and sort of like you know are are sadly about the way that the resistance will works is more than there were to see five years ago.

[00:41:06] We have a ceasefire resolution by Corey Bush, I believe that I think 18 US congressional representatives signed on to which is probably you know 17 more than would have signed on to it a couple years ago.

[00:41:21] All sorts of progress it's way too slow.

[00:41:26] It's just you know that we are at an elementary stage of movement building of mobilizing popular support to the point where this sort of thing could be possible maybe you know maybe with the unfortunate momentum that this is giving to the Palestine movement.

[00:41:45] If that momentum were able to be kept up you know in 10 years maybe it's just too late.

[00:41:52] It's just it's at this point you know the popular move I mean it's it's been moving too slowly I don't know I don't know what to do.

[00:42:05] At this point I mean there's their moments when sort of like mass mobilizing and continuing to work is what needs to happen there's moments where yeah you're doing that but you're also waiting to see what cards history is going to give you and strategize accordingly.

[00:42:22] Because I'm that you know saying the speed at you know pretty much he asked to pretty much it was being pretty much a policy and just sit around to weigh what you know what comes around.

[00:42:34] What comes out in this out of the world as far as you know movement or progress into having some sort of just resolution right just as I told you 13 Israeli government order 1 million Palestinians to lead northern Gaza to the south.

[00:42:48] And same time the pressure in Egypt to open the the rough crossing so that the Palestinian refugees to go to sign IPadence to the right and just set up a tent city there right.

[00:43:00] To the point Egypt is resisting to open the open the crossing right to let the refugees in right and issues being clear as a soul etc etc but the reason why they're doing so it's because they know that if those mil if that million of past and in word to Brussels.

[00:43:17] And I'm more likely than not there will be a return back so so the idea is that.

[00:43:27] The premise here is that that northern territory of Gaza which Gaza is about was about the size of Manhattan so direct.

[00:43:36] Yeah that that northern part of Gaza will get flatten and annex it into the into this into this really entity and that millions of refugees will be out of the country will never be a lot of come back right so while we the the the the movement you know the movement here in the United States and elsewhere right you know.

[00:43:59] Do their progress and slow motion etc with like 17 resolution Congress doing you know for now resolution everything this is happening real time on the ground right this happens so fast.

[00:44:11] You know so that could be described that's what a lot of plastic called this is second not the.

[00:44:18] Not by the state from the region knocked that would you would you think this is hyperbolic to say that this is essentially ethnic cleansing and that it hasn't registered here in the United States or to you know people in Congress or not that this is what's happening was they know what didn't was happening just don't care.

[00:44:38] Yeah definitely ethnic cleansing i mean it's genocide of levels of violence it's elimination of settler colonialism i mean i think there's sort of settler colonialism is where you list the indigenous population is sort of like an underclass or something for economic reasons.

[00:44:56] Israel has decided not to and list the Palestinian population as an underclass is a labor movement i mean the first time to fight it was a strike right at which point is real is sort of like you know screw that sort of like let's replace you know the Palestinian workers with you know immigrants from other countries and so they said about building.

[00:45:19] A labor force that was non Palestinian so that they could practice genocide levels of violence against the Palestinians without endangering their enemy or they can build an alternative economy based on you know weapons and which are field tested against Palestinians as opposed to keeping Palestinians as laborer so it was a strategic.

[00:45:40] So yeah, Israel's endgame has always been elimination you know this does not this is a superfluous population they're interrupting the sort of the Zionist myth they can't wait to eliminate them and then 50 years on you know it's sort of like the United States policy towards you know the Native Americans and they can start to be very sorry you know they're waiting for that that's so yeah that's that's.

[00:46:06] That's the program it's hardly secret and you know either people died or have forced to immigrate what's surprising in all this you know I mean this is sort of.

[00:46:21] It's a sort of it's a program that's been a program for all that for a long time what's absolutely astonishing has been the on.

[00:46:31] The energy around Palestinian resistance right the energy which isn't just an energy of sort of resistance a survival but a sort of cultural thriving they sort of like you know we're going to continue you know yeah we're still here and here's our.

[00:46:50] Food right we're still here and here's our joy right i mean this is a culture in which sort of like you know hospitality and.

[00:47:00] Oh and it's sort of like it's a culture with sort of like gorgeous on more moral sort of cultural artistic achievements and put possibilities and to sort of maintain the culture with all those you know.

[00:47:18] Respects intact for the sake of joy that's been.

[00:47:23] You know and that's the saying that is really the lamination is policy wasn't counting on.

[00:47:30] And as you know the rest of the world being part of the rest of the world again I think our marching orders are to sort of like listen to what the Palestinians are telling us to do.

[00:47:41] So sort of like support see Palestine not just as a sort of graveyard you know of bodies that is real depressing but it's in musical poetic you know place of of of of of.

[00:47:56] Of intact cultural you know joy.

[00:48:01] I mean now isn't the week for it right you know things are pretty bad but but but but I think the ability of Palestinians to sort of survive and resist for this long is due to.

[00:48:16] It is immense cultural resources there are a couple two of the genocide convention described in a science.

[00:48:24] Can we members of the group.

[00:48:26] Colossian seriously bodily or mental harm to members of the group deliberately and flicking on the group conditions of life cat lived to bring about its physical destruction in all or in part.

[00:48:37] And then the measures intended to prevent birth within the group or slowly transferring children of the group to another group.

[00:48:45] It's hard not to see that how the shoe fits.

[00:48:50] And me so currently.

[00:48:54] God's has been bond not only God's has been bond but Southern Lebanon is being bomb serious being bond Egypt was threatened to be bond if you were to send all.

[00:49:05] And then the boys across the the matter and eight come boy across the rough.

[00:49:12] There's there's rates being conducted inside of West Bank.

[00:49:16] There's several actors in the region that have been sitting a warnings to the Israeli government particular the.

[00:49:22] The group clients by lion and the ran telling Israel that they were to invade on land.

[00:49:29] They will have to get involved are the other troops there meanwhile United States concerned.

[00:49:34] And assets into the region to fool two battle groups to aircraft carriers with us several go boats and and and basis.

[00:49:47] Her proud so it's a feccy or were being sent to Jordan other being House in Jordan you got the Jordan population restless in the demanding that the government in all side with the Palestinians meanwhile the getting posed down by the security forces and Jordan.

[00:50:05] As they tried to as Jordanian citizens try to.

[00:50:08] Browse into Palestine support their.

[00:50:11] The Palestinian brothers United States just bond Syria about two days ago claiming that it was tacking Iranian assets US bases interact were keeping the attack by the group.

[00:50:26] And the team groups on the team who saying you know in the support Palestine and also have the youthies and Yemen also.

[00:50:34] Apparently through a blast some missiles towards towards the area were intercepted by US down boats.

[00:50:41] All the while people are restaurant in our own West Asia demand going to something do you fear that this tragedy can instill over and get out of control into a wider conflict in the area.

[00:50:54] Yes, I think that's something that.

[00:51:00] I think that's that might be a place where it sort of you know mass mobilization for Palestine can can have an effect right I mean with with with.

[00:51:12] In terms of US foreign policy right there's this sort of like experimental sort of like how much push back are we going to get if we do this yeah.

[00:51:21] This might be a moment when this sort of mass mobilization for Palestine is been sort of extraordinary protest might carry with it the message that the political cost of militarism is is going to be too great.

[00:51:36] That's that's all I can say and hope for it certainly it's certainly worry.

[00:51:42] I think this is a good place for to wrap it up today.

[00:51:46] Do you thank you so much for coming on the show share your time thoughts and experience with us any last comments before we depart.

[00:51:54] Thank you so much for having me sorry about the technical glitches.

[00:51:58] It's just a pleasure to talk to you so grateful for your concern and attention.

[00:52:04] Onisha.

[00:52:06] Last comments.

[00:52:08] No, skip me I'll say too many things that I shouldn't say openly.

[00:52:14] Thank you no I would do you want to say thank you to you to for sharing your tonight and I hope you're resting eating hydrating as much as possible.

[00:52:25] Thank you so much.

[00:52:27] Do you have please tell us where to go for information what actions are.

[00:52:32] You shield our taking place I know that you know you want to do so what is happening where the you know what's been done on the ground.

[00:52:42] What people are listening should consider on board if they want to work in Palestinians and and this madness.

[00:52:50] Thank you that's perfect.

[00:52:52] US campaign for Palestinian rights is an excellent educational resource and they have a list of actions.

[00:53:01] They they keep it standing list of actions around the country.

[00:53:06] I don't think that.

[00:53:16] I'll just you're into.

[00:53:17] So now or both more reliable news sources than what I'm or out of the sort of the central media outlets.

[00:53:27] I mean, I mean.

[00:53:31] There are places to donate the Middle East Children's Alliance is a good humanitarian with working within Gaza.

[00:53:39] But I think what on what's needed now is a counter to the disinformation campaign.

[00:53:46] And people to sort of stand up and say you know that a ceasefires what's needed that the Palestinians are under occupation.

[00:53:56] And and yeah, and to be a visible part of the the movement for Palestine.

[00:54:04] All right, thank you for joining us today and I hope see you soon and keep the flight.

[00:54:11] Thank you so much.

[00:54:13] So there's a Palestine.

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