Liberation Theology vs. the Christian Right w/ Reverend Claudia De La Cruz - Ep 183

this is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan, Jo

vonni, Shiloh, Monisha , and Mike

Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign

policy, anti-militarism, skepticism, and the American way of war.

I'm Jovanni, here joined with Monisha.

Hi, Monisha.

Hey, Jovanni.

How you doing?

Great.

Thank you for being here with us today.

And let's get to it.

Welcome So in the 1960s and '70s, a movement emerged from the slums

and villages of Latin America.

Led by a Catholic priest, this ideology insisted that God was on the side of the

poor, not the powerful, and that faith demanded political struggle and the

liberation of the oppressed here on Earth.

It inspired popular education icon Paulo Freire, fierce advocate of

the poor and martyr Arch- Bishop Óscar Romero, and ousted Haitian

President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

It fueled popular movements like the Sandinistas in Nicaragua

and the ELN in Colombia.

It organized communities, challenged dictators, and developed leaders

who will then seize power.

But it made enemies.

The Vatican condemned its Marxist leanings, while Washington

worked violently crushed it, promoting a privatized faith

that served Cold War interests.

we're touching on this topic now because a new far-right movement is

taking hold across Latin America, one whose interests align with the

United States and Zionism, and which is being boosted by the phenomenon

of evangelical charismatic churches.

I'm joined now by liberation theologian to unpack all this.

Here with us today is Reverend Claudia DeLaCruz.

Claudia is a mother, popular educator, community organizer, and theologian.

Being at the nexus of many different projects, organizations, and

social movements, Claudia connects different groups of people to think

to link and merge struggles in the overarching fight for justice.

She graduated from the Union Theological Seminary at the Columbia University,

and served as a pastor of her home church, Iglesia San Romero de las

Americas, CCC, UCC for eight years.

Claudia also co-founded and served as co-executive director of the

People's Forum in New York City.

In roles at San Romero Church in the People's Forum, Claudia

remained committed to the work towards building internationalism

and people-to-people solidarity.

For nearly 30 years, Claudia has demonstrated a fierce commitment

to building people power locally, nationally, and internationally.

Welcome to the show, Reverend.

How are you doing today?

I'm doing well.

Thank you for having me.

And we're truly honored to have you here.

I'm excited to be in conversation with you.

All right.

Monisha, you wanna go ahead and start?

Sure, thanks.

I'm really excited for this conversation.

I don't know if our audience knows if I've talked about it before, but I focused on

liberation psychology for my doctorate in psychology and specifically investigating

the militarization of psychology, the American Psychological Association as a

defense industry, et cetera, et cetera.

And Ignacio Martin-Baro was the father of liberation psychology, and he was

a Jesuit priest who was murdered by a US-backed battalion in El Salvador.

He's a really incredible figure who grew He applied liberation the-

theology to psychology and created something really beautiful and powerful.

And I wanna honor him too and show respect to him too in our

conversation, if that's okay.

But apologies also for the background noise.

There's military a- aircraft flying over.

But Reverend, if you could, I would love to start off with a little bit

more details on what is liberation theology, for people who are listening

who may have not heard of it before.

And then also what is your relationship to it and what led you in the direction

to, to pursue liberation theology?

How did I come… I think it's important to understand that liberation

theology is a response to a theology that is oppressive, hence the word

liberation in front of theology, and is not something that just happens

out of thin air and, or that it happens in the '60s and seven- '70s.

It was, the term was coined in the '60s and '70s, but you could think

about liberation theology all the way back to enslaved human beings who

actually utilized their faith and their spirituals to be able to connect to

freedom, and actually fight for freedom, and many of them winning freedom.

So if you think about Haiti and the Do- the i- island right next to the Dominican

Republic, sharing the same land, right?

When we think about their struggle for liberation and the first revolution,

the first Black revolution to be won in this hemisphere, it was very

much connected to people's faith.

It was very much connected to people's practices in relationship to, finding the

source of strength to liberate themselves.

So we could all go all the way back to the practice of religiosity or the practice

of faith as a liberatory practice.

And what happened in the '60s and '70s in the continent of the Americas,

specifically as it relates to South America, is that there are people

that are systematizing, people that are writing about these practices.

And among the people that are writing about, the liberation theologies or the

liberation practices within theology is Gustavo Gutiérrez, and he coins the

term liberation theology in the 1970s, which ultimately comes out of practices

that are being done at the grassroots.

So he's actually reflecting and writing about a practice, which is ultimately

what theory is and what, he's theorizing.

There were the Comunidades Eclesiásticas de Base, which were basically base

communities that were getting together throughout South America, actually

specifically in countries where there were dictatorships or remnants of dictatorships

or people were being persecuted and the church was an accomplice to those.

And he was writing about those who were in opposition and were actually

opening up the spaces for communities to come together and organize themselves.

And that is the practice of liberation theology.

The preferential option for the poor, the one that says that, God has a

preference for those who are oppressed.

That there is something as taking sides.

And so how do I come to liberation theology?

I think it was an interesting path because my mom was raised Catholic.

she actually was raised in a convent.

And so I was rebelling against all sorts of things at 13, 14, 15, asking too

many questions about racism, patriarchy.

I'm the only woman in a household of three, the only girl at that moment.

So I was asking questions about why do I have to do the dishes?

Why do I have to clean after them?

Why don't they get to do the same chores?

I was rebelling against racism.

I had lived in the Dominican Republic, had come back.

It was a very difficult cultural shock for me to see how people related here,

So I was becoming more politically and socially conscious and did not have

answers, and my mom thought if I take you to church, maybe you'll get some answers."

And it was the complete opposite.

she brought me to the Catholic Church, the Evangelical church, and

I had criticisms about all of them until she finally took me to a church

that was called Iglesia Santa Maria, which was a Spanish the Spanish

congregation within an Episcopal church.

And the congregation was very interesting because it was a coming

together of many atheist socialists that were coming from social movements

in Latin America and the Caribbean.

So you have folks that were part of el Emelein in El Salvador.

You had folks that were part of el Movimiento de Izquierda Revolucionario,

which is the MIR in Chile.

You had folks that were coming from different Dominican leftist parties.

You had folks that were remnants of the Young Lords, folks that were remnants

of the, the Black Panthers and the BLA.

And so it was like a compilation of folks that you would not

expect to find at a church.

And in my understanding of faith and religion, was turned upside down

It was kinda like these people who are involved in movement who don't

claim to, to be religious or people of faith are the most faithful.

They're the most active, they're in the front lines, they're organizing

against police brutality, they're organizing around immigrant rights,

they're organizing around housing.

This is what the houses of the Lord looks like.

And that was in practice.

And then my pastor at that moment started giving me books.

And, one of the first books he gave me was precisely Gustavo

Gutierrez' Theology of the Oppressed.

Then I started reading about Elder Cámara, then I started looking more into Óscar

Romero, then I… and I found that there was an actual theology that went with

our practice, that it wasn't that we were some random, space in, in the middle of

New York, but that the church actually came from a theological tradition that was

pro-liberation, and that it ha- it had a history that was very much rooted not only

in Latin America, but in the Global South.

And so I started making connections with our history here as well when I

thought, Harriet Tubman, for example, very spiritual, very faithful.

Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and you go back to so many of the folks that

served the people and were revolutionaries that actually were grounded in some sort

of theology and practicing liberation theology, because ultimately that's

what liberation theology's about

So my understanding is that liberation theology didn't emerge

outside of the church, right?

It actually came from within, with priests, nuns, bishops, lay movements.

How did it, the, this internal I don't wanna say contradiction shape

the formation of this movement?

And I know you, you spoke a little bit about liberation theology, but

if you can start by, How did it did it affect the church at the time?

I think it was, again, I wanna say that it was born out of a revolutionary era.

So it was not like it was in the vacuum, right?

So you have 1959, the Cuban Revolution in Latin America.

You have, as a result of the Cuban Revolution, a lot of support for

other revolutionary movements.

In Chile, in the Dominican Republic, in Haiti.

You have the emergence of some something like, imagine a fireball, that is going

through Latin America and the Caribbean.

And there were, again, workers' movements, peasant movements

women's movements for LGBTQ rights.

And here in the United States, you had the Black Panthers and BLA.

you had the Communist Party.

You had different groups that were organizing around liberation in

this continent and around the world.

You had, Patrice Lumumba, you had Thomas Sankara, you had Nkrumah.

So it was a moment of revolution around the world, and it would have

been very odd … for different sectors of society not to follow suit.

And in many ways, that is where sectors of the church start understanding their

role within the liberation movement.

And so the Vatican pronounces itself in, Vatican II- … urging Catholics

to scrutinize the sign of the times.

And this is specifically coming out of their text.

That's what they said.

You have to scrutinize the times.

You have to look into what times we are and share in the agonies

of the modern world, but also you have to be credible in this moment.

And being credible and making God credible is having God walk with the people, and

there's no other way of doing that but placing God on the side of the poor and

placing God on the side of the oppressed.

And so once that is actually established and signed by the Vatican,

priests who were already… These priests were already doing the work.

It wasn't stamped by the Vatican, but it was then stamped by the Vatican, and

then they felt that they were actually supported in one way or another.

The Vatican was not saying, revolution should come from Catholicism or

revolution should come from the church, but it was saying you have a

responsibility of siding with the poor.

And that was like the stamp that a lot of these priests took on to say,

we're receiving these orders or this orientation from the highest leadership

of the church, so we're within our right to do and that's what happens.

Of course, there are contradictions that arise in that because ultimately

you have the institution of the church.

I usually like to make the distinction, church with the big C

and church with a small C, right?

The church with the big C the institution of the church, doesn't necessarily change.

They're making a pronouncement.

They're declaring that churches should be along the side of the poor, but

it's not like they're demanding it.

It's not like that is this is what you all have to do." They're just-

… they're just making that proclamation.

But they're making it also because there were a lot of

churches already doing the work.

There were a lot of archbishops, a lot of a lot of priests, a lot of folks

who held high positions, specifically again in the Global South, that were

doing the work of aligning themselves with revolutionary movements.

And so if you don't put yourself along the side of the context in which

you're in, you're gonna be left behind.

The church did not wanna be left behind, and so they make that announce-

that, that declaration, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the

structure of the church itself changes.

It didn't change.

it was still hierarchical.

It was still exclusive and very discriminatory against women.

It was still very discriminatory against LGBTQ communities.

It was still very discriminatory against the Global South.

But there were people within those structures that took it

upon themselves to change those realities, specifically in their local

communities or in their nation states.

and this is where Gustavo Gutierrez, Elder Camara even within the Cuban

Revolution, you had folks like Sergio Arce … Reverendo Raul Suarez, and many

others who were like, "Okay, we're living in this context of Cuban Revolution, so

we are already on the side of the poor.

We are already on the side of the oppressed, so how do we make

a revolutionary Christianity?

How do we make a revolutionary faith?" And they were engaging with that, and

there's a specific liberation theology that is coming from Cuba which is

very interesting because again, it's the, the liberation theology that

is built within a socialist society.

And so I say that to say that it's the context.

The context actually is the one that births liberation theology, and in

some ways forces the hand of the church to declare- … that those

that are doing it are not outside of the orientation of the church.

So I guess that, like you mentioned, there was… it was a

time of global revolution, right?

1968 is considered a time of global revolution.

There was movements everywhere.

There was the independence movements in Africa in Asia, the Vietnam War.

You had movements in Europe, in the United States and everything.

But what I find curious, what specifically did Latin America has to do this

merger between, because a lot, 'cause a lot of these places, the churches

pretty much took the side of power to the side of, in, in all these other

countries took the side of power.

But in, in this particular context in, in this particular country, Brazil,

Colombia and stuff like that, a lot of the, like you said, not the hierarchy,

not so much the hierarchy, right?

Romero kinda is an exception, but frontline priests and nuns they

were walking along with the people and actually bleeding with them.

So what made this region particularly fertile for this type of ide- ideology?

Thing is, what makes any type of region fertile for a socialist movement

to e- emerge, of a revolutionary movement, is the material conditions.

Colombia, you mentioned the guerrilla movement.

Camilo Torres-

was a priest that decided that he would actually leave the church and he would

join the, the guerrillas and fought along and died along the guerrillas.

And I, again, I think it's a matter of, the, the real experiences of the people

that are attending these church spaces.

One thing that we need to have really clear is that in moment of in the

most miserable moments, we've been taught that there is a community

that would answer to those needs, and those are communities of faith.

Whatever faith you are, if you're a Christian, if you're Jewish, if you're

Muslim, you go to your community of faith to find answers, but also to find

relief What type of relief can a priest or a nun or a faith leader give someone

that is actually experiencing the very large problem of imperialism, the very

large problem of exploitation that is not individual, but it's massive?

And in many ways, what these folks did was find a level of alignment with the

different movements that were already there, the peasant movements that

were fighting against against the, the landowners that were exploiting people.

In the Dominican Republic, we have the case of Florinda Soriano, Mama

Tingó, who was also a leader of the peasantry and was also a woman of faith.

And so I think, if like what gives birth, what makes these places

ripe is the material conditions of exploitation that people suffer.

And The very clear decision on behalf of the leaders of faith

not to turn a blind eye to those.

And again, not everybody does that.

Not every faith leader, whether it is in a small church with a small C

or a big church as an institution, as high as the archbishops.

But in this m- in that case, there … Again, the moment allowed

for it to happen because these priests, these nuns that were taking

these positions were not alone.

They were not doing it alone.

They were doing it with massive movements in the context of their nation

states, and even within the region.

And so they were not taking individual positions.

I think i- it's important to recognize that, Monseñor Romero

does not come out of nowhere.

He is very much touched by the conditions of the people, but also because one of his

best friends was actually murdered because he was defending the peasantry, because he

was defending the people of El Salvador.

And then he realizes, "Wow, if this happens to a priest, I can only imagine

what happens to the people." And that's when the transformation happens, and I

think a lot of people in that context were transformed by that reality.

When you think about, the Pedagogy of the Oppressed and Paulo Freire,

you're talking about someone that was very touched by liberation theology.

And by the way in which these priests and these church communities

were organizing themselves.

And the methodology to be able then to teach the poor and the

peasantry how to read and write come from that level of organization.

But that level of organization only happens in response to the level of

exploitation and the ways in which people have to organize themselves,

and the church giving them some sort of sanctuary to be able to do that.

'Cause that's another thing.

The church has served as a sanctuary to hide fighters, freedom fighters, to hide,

folks that were organizing, the peasantry.

And so the conditions, again, led to that level of organization.

It led people like Camilo Torres to make the decision to go into

the guerrilla ridi- rather than continuing to fight in sp- within

the church in that specific moment.

So you know, what made it possible?

The material conditions, but also the moment.

Indeed.

A- actually it did cause a reaction in the Vatican once it started moving,

things started moving, and it did cause a reaction in Washington as well.

Cardinal Dom Hélder Câmara said "As long as I was asking people to help the

poor, I was called a saint." " Asked why are there so much poor- poverty,

I was treated as a communist."

And that's a key word, right?

so anytime you helped the poor at that time you were

treated as a communist, right?

And you mentioned this priest and all these nuns that, they gave their,

they put their body on the line.

They gave blood and sweat and tear to work with the people, with the salt, with

the salt of the earth and everything.

The thousands of bishops, priests, nuns, they were threatened,

arrested, tortured, killed.

You had the 1980 murder of the four American church-

Nuns.

… People.

In a Ford, Maura Clark Dorothy Kazel and Jean Donovan.

You have the 1989 massacre of the six Jesuit priests and two lay-

they were just… and actually Washington, developed a po- a, a

policy to reverse that motion, that movement, the, of liberation theology.

No, the, obviously, there is no such thing as oppression without resistance,

and resistance without opposition.

It is it, that's the formula.

That's how it happens in history.

And like I mentioned, from the Vatican there was this declaration.

It didn't mean that they transformed the institution.

Obviously these were headaches for the Vatican.

This, these were, like, hardcore headaches.

And in many ways, it- I think it, it's important to say the

church has worked hand-in-hand with processes of colonization.

It has worked hand-in-hand with processes of US imperialism.

If we see what's happening today in terms of this turn to white supremist national

evangelical movement that is reemerging, because it's always been there, but

it's reemerging, and it's reemerging in many ways in an international way.

It has a lot to do with US imperialism and a desire f- to, to regain U-

the hegemony over the world, and we need to understand it as such.

And so w- m- hence, this whole idea of religiosity not being political is crap.

It's complete nonsense.

There's nothing more political than the church.

It's always been weaponized, and it's always been an instrument

either to oppress or to liberate.

And I think that this is the important piece of liberation theology, that it

offers a pathway for those who understand that we as human beings have some sort of

spirituality, because we do have spirit.

Some of us transform that spirituality to faith, and some

people transform it into religiosity.

All three are not the same.

But if we choose to engage more with our spirit and become people of

faith, then we need a pathway that is towards liberation, not oppression.

And so liberation theology is created as that pathway, and it's created

by people, again, that understand that this is not a new practice.

It's something that has been there forever, and it's

just reclaiming our history.

It's saying, "This has always existed, and if you have questions, those

questions are valid. And if you have an understanding that from your faith

you can engage in liberation practices, that is also valid, and it's necessary."

So something that r- really stood out for me when I was learning, first learning

about liberation theology and liberation psychology is how similar the essence of

that standing up to the institution that has caused so much harm, and standing up

to it while you're, are inside of it, and you're basically tasked with upholding it.

And so like the whole question about how did this contradiction play out

within the, the church and what led to the development of liberation

theology I also look at the internal processes of the individuals

that chose to side with the poor.

And I wish I could interview all of them and ask them, "What was

the pivotal moment for you when you realized that your faith needed to be

practiced and expressed in this way-"

Rather than in the way that the institution was telling you to do

it?" Like, how was that for them, and so I think because I'm also a

veteran, Jovanni's a veteran, we also have been part of an institution that

has done exceedingly great harm in the world and continues to do so.

And so we carry an identity with us that does not necessarily

inspire trust- and that doesn't, on the offset, look liberatory.

And we have a narrative that we were fed that made us buy into the religion

of military the religion of American exceptionalism, et cetera, et cetera.

And so I just I don't know.

I think it's interesting to look at

how people interpret their faith and then put that into practice.

And I think liberation theology is this beautiful opportunity for people to hold

onto their faith while also embracing a deeper sense of responsibility and

connection particularly for Christians.

In my distant past I was a children's pastor and I left the church

because of these contradictions.

It didn't match for me.

And now how I choose to walk in my newfound belief

system is through liberation.

It's, that's it.

that's the only thing.

… Purpose for any of this is for us to help love each other, liberate each other,

take care of each other, et cetera.

So I'm just wonder, you know What it was like for them as individuals

when they were making these choices and stepping into these roles which

is just a sidebar, but there's actually a, a question I have for you.

You've said in the past, "We have a Christian right that utilizes faith

as a weapon, and we must utilize it as a tool for liberation."

So could you say more about that?

I feel like that's a natural segue for what you've just said.

Yeah.

I appreciate everything that you have to say, and I'll just say in response to

that and then I'll answer the question, is that every institution that is born out of

the system in which we actually currently materially live in, which is capitalism

and US empire reflects the values and the principles of that economic system.

You cannot detach in any way, shape or form the economic

system from these institutions.

Like, and the way that we could actually reveal that the best is if

we pay attention to the question of Palestine in the last three years, right?

The issue of genocide and war against Palestine at the hands of the genocidal

state of Israel is not new and has been happening for over 70 years.

But if we focus only on the last three years, which have revealed the brutality

of the colonial state of Israel and the brutality of the United States empire, and

the position of universities, the position of cultural institutions as it relates to

genocide tells us exactly how entrenched, how connected the economic system is to

everything that builds our culture and everything that builds how we think.

So we have to make a choice.

There's no choice.

We choose life or death.

We choose genocide or fighting in defense of life.

that's … There's no other choice.

And so when you think about religion, it's the same thing.

You choose a religion that oppresses, that blesses weapons, that blesses

war, that justifies oppression and abuse against women, or you choose

the opposite It's really not that complicated, I think that we connect

a lot of the emotional aspects to it, or I was raised this way, or my mom,

or the nice Easter Sundays type thing.

And it's, we deviate from what really matters.

Because ultimately th- it's as basic as we support an oppressive institution

or we support liberatory practices.

so you have said in the past- and I quote, "We have a Christian right

that utilizes faith as a weapon, and we must utilize it as a tool for

liberation." Can you unpack that?

I think it's important for us, and I said it's the reemergence of Christianity that

is right-wing, is, White supremacist, evangelical, backwards in all ways and

shapes that justifies all sorts of vile acts against people and the planet.

That's that it's resurfacing.

It's always been there.

'Cause think about the slave owners that went to church every Sunday, and then

right out of coming, right after they came out of service, they would whoop and break

the limbs of slaves, like human beings.

That is a type of church and, Christianity that we're talking about

now, one that justifies that level of atrocities against human beings.

And again, I think it has a lot to do with us understanding, having a

moral compass that is outside of the constraints of what we've been taught by

Christianity, outside of the constraints of what we've been taught by our faith,

and actually gauge is this right?

Is it right for human beings to be hunted like dogs in the streets, in

their workplace, in their churches, in their hospitals, in their schools,

for babies to have to see their parent being shot in the neck by these ICE

agents, and for these Christians to say, "That is how God wants it"?

There is no okay to that.

Is it okay to have a president that says that he is going to wipe

out a whole civilization, billions of people How is that godly?

And so again, I think it's people complicate things for their own benefit,

to justify their own, l- levels of brutality and their own levels of,

h- of hatred, and so I think it's highly important for those of us, you

know, who consider ourselves people of consciousness, specifically in

the sector, in the space of faith, to raise our voices because it's

literally the kidnapping of our faith.

It's a kidnapping of a Palestinian Jew who was a revolutionary, who went into

a temple and literally whoop folks that were defiling the place of worship.

That is who we are talking about.

We're talking about someone who ate with and walked with and even cleaned

the feet of those in the margins.

I don't know where in their Bible does it say that all the things that

Trump and his administration and the capitalists ultimately, because this

is not just a Trump issue, this is an issue of the capitalist and imperialist

system, I don't know where in their book they could possibly find something

to justify the levels of aggression against humanity and the planet.

And we have not only the right, we have the responsibility.

It's a historical responsibility that we have.

And I think for me, the most important piece that I found in my own journey was

having having the ability to name it.

Again, like I said, this church was not just a random church in New York City.

It was part of a long history and a long tradition of people of faith

who have fought to be able to have a level of dignity for and with

our people, a level of freedom, a level of liberation that allows us

to live exactly how God intended.

That is like the decision that we have to make.

do we silence ourselves because these small group of billionaires have created

an echo chamber and have stamped it with in God we trust, or do we break

through that and actually create more of a collective voice saying, "That is not

what Jesus, and that is not what God, and that is not what faith is about"?

So I wanna go into contemporary.

L- so let me back up to the Medellín Conference, right?

1968, there was a conference in Medellín, right?

Which pretty much it was said by in a clerical conference which said that, the,

like you said earlier God prefer, have preferential towards the poor, right?

Misery is an injustice misery is an injustice whose cry reaches the

heavens and therefore it is a sin.

That's one of the statements that came out of there, right?

So Washington, it seems like Washington really came down hard on liberation

theology in South America, right?

A- and in some ways came even harder, it either, either saw it as a

threat equal to socialism, communism during the Cold War, or even so

more, or even though more, right?

Even more as a threat.

So they were determined to, to stomp it out of Latin America, right?

There was a, a, a re- a report, a Rockefeller report at the time that

talked about the Medellín Accord, right?

Or the conference which it says that it represent a threat to US

interests in the region, right?

Like I said, it seemed that they were very harp in, in, in stomping it out, right?

And they recommended an extensive campaign to propagate the

Protestant churches, right?

And conservative sects, sects in the region.

And they recommended that a recommendation that that you saw at

the same time around that time, around the 1980s, all the civil wars and

the dictators and stuff like that.

You saw a lot of evangelicals flocking to the areas at, around that time, right?

Seemed like this was part of the Rockefeller report that, that

seems like the, it's not seems.

It's, we know now that the, the Reagan administration pretty much

were pushing for a lot of these evangelical charismatic churches going

into Latin America to pretty much off balance Latin America theology.

We have the time of c- Plan Condor and everything.

Now we're seeing, I'm go- use Brazil for example.

Brazil used to be a huge was at one point was, up until recently, was the largest

Catholic country in the world, right?

The most Catholic people in the world, right?

Today, it has more people who, who confess to evangelical Christians Protestant

evangelicals than Catholics do, right?

And we're seeing now how this off-balance of these evangelical churches, charismatic

churches, and stuff like that are preferring these characters like Milei,

like Bolsonaro the guy in Salvador.

What's his name?

Bukele.

Bukele.

Keiko Fujimori, right?

So a lot of, you know, so this ele- this election, nowadays the right wing is not

coming in through like boots like the did, like Pinochet and stuff like that.

Now they're coming in through the ballots, and now the ballots you're

seeing that these churches are pretty much boosting this, right?

Is liberation theology dead in Latin America?

No.

I think it's important to under- again, context is important.

And you detailed a number of ways in which the United States responded to

the emergence of liberation theology.

Obviously, you had a cold, a cultural Cold War of sorts that didn't only

come in attack of religion It came in attack of culture, like through

music, through, design, through a lot of different cultural fronts, right?

Because again, this is an era in which there is a revolutionary culture

that is emergence, that is emerging.

If you take for example in Chile in the 1970s, the muralist culture in

response to, or actually promoting revolutionary movements, but also in

response to then the coup and the struggle that was still there after the coup.

And so we need to understand that again, religion falls into that cultural

Cold War that comes as a response of the resistance of the people.

And obviously, agencies like the CIA, like the USAID channeled a lot of money

and a lot of social capital to suppress liberation theology in Latin America, and

I think that's been highly documented, the amount of money that was poured into that,

the counter-narrative, and Evangelical Christianity's also part of it.

In the early 2000s even, the movement of, Pare de sufri- Pare de

Sufrir, which is the megachurches.

Like the, is the expression of the megachurches in the Evangelical form in

Latin America- … and the Caribbean.

Prosperity gospel.

Prosperity gospel yeah.

Which is basically enriching whoever is the head of the church

at the expense of the majority of people coming into the church.

And a narrative that tells people basically, "Because you are the son

of God, you need to act as if you're the son of God, therefore you need

to expend money that you don't have-

To appear to be the son of and daughter of God," which is really crazy.

And we are, we've seen this resurgence and this push of these type of

churches all across Latin America and the Caribbean in the last 20 years.

It happened really hardcore, while liberation theology was under attack, and

it happens again in the 2000s because in Latin America, there was a resurgence of

progressive movements and the resurgence of progressive governments, right?

That, in Argentina, for example, you had the Krishnas.

In Ecuador, you had, like you have this wave that was called the pink wave.

And Chavez.

Yeah, Chavez, the pink wave … very inspiring.

You have the formation of different mechanisms to combat

US imperialism in the region.

Now you have Mercosur, you have ALBA, you have all these different formations.

This, that it's the economic, it's the political coordination, and it's

also very much cultural and social.

And so they had to counteract that as well, and created many

different forms of doing that.

And one of the forms that was done, it was by flooding Latin

America and the Caribbean with this prosperity gospel, with, a lot of

Mormons, missionaries coming as well that were part of this attack.

And so when we see what we are seeing now, pretty much like the United

States in some ways because we cannot detach ourselves from the rest of

the world as working class people.

We've been subjected to a level of, again, cultural war of wa- i- it, like

ideological war and the imposition of a lot of the values and principles of

individualism, rugged individualism, of, alienation, you name it.

So that when moments like this hit, like a Trump or a Bukele or, Or Bolsonaro

or any of those, Milei, hit, the, the movements are in a weakened state.

The people, the working class are in a weakened state.

And religion is not in, is not exempt from that level of attack.

It's part of the attack.

I keep talking about the Dominican Republic because m- my family's

from the Dominican Republic.

And right now there's an entire recolonization process that's

happening in the Dominican Republic.

Right now the current president of the Dominican Republic is making

agreements with the United States that will place the economy of the Dominican

Republic pretty much along the lines of the economy of Haiti, which has

been completely destroyed by the US.

And it is because the Dominican Republic, one of the main industries is rice.

One of our main industries is the production of rice.

And the president of the Dominican Republic, which by the way is one of

the wealthiest men in the region, has agreed for the United States to import

rice to the Dominican Republic, killing the industry of rice, that is a national

industry in the Dominican Republic, which means that hundreds of thousands of

people will lose their jobs, and the level of, national income will also decrease.

Not only their job, their property.

Property, jobs.

The properties have been already under threat because of the levels

of resorts and in- investments, quote-unquote, that are being made

by foreign entities in the country.

And so w- again, we're seeing that recolonization, it

happened in Honduras as well.

It has happened in Haiti.

It's happening in the Dominican Republic.

When we talk about El Salvador, for example, the expansion of mass

incarceration, the creation of prisons As an industry is something

that comes from the United States.

So again, I think it's important to see all these things together as part of

a larger plan to regain hegemony not only of this re- region, but of the

world, utilizing different mechanisms.

And again, religion is part of it.

But, the Dominican Republic, a lot of our people have been miseducated for so

long about what it means to hold national pride and the question of sovereignty that

people are actually not doing as much as they should be doing around this news.

People are too busy, culturally involved with influencers, and, the new song that's

coming out or the new fashion trend.

But the majority of people are suffering as much as any other country

in the Global South because we are part of the Global South, right?

But the idea that somehow we're better off because we could buy things probably

or s- buy some things that maybe other countries can't buy, but we're poor still.

It's like the same thing with the people in the United States.

Just because we have access to a Dollar Tree doesn't make us any better than the

next person in Mexico, or the next person in Haiti, or the next person in Cuba.

We're still poor.

We're still struggling.

And this question of aspiring to be like the billionaires without actually

holding any type of position that would actually get us to be like

billionaires, that aspiration, that sense of belonging is what they sell us.

They don't sell us actual material, real solutions, but they sell us an

aspiration that then keeps us in this trap of supporting, of validating.

And I think that is where a lot of our people are, in the United States and

across the globe, because this rise of ultra-right governments, has a lot to

do with the ideological and cultural work that the right has done to organize

precisely to get us to this place

Claudia, it was really wonderful having you on.

I'm excited to talk to you more whenever there's another opportunity.

And Jovanni, thank you for coordinating this as well.

And what else, before we go, would you like our audience to know about

you, about liberation theology?

Where can people find and follow you?

How would you like to close?

I think that despite of or in spite of all the very chaotic and unfortunate

realities that we're experiencing, not only in this country but around

the world, we are living in the times that we are meant to be in.

I think that's important for us to remember, that we are here for a reason,

and we're here with a reason, right?

So there is a necessity for, for people of consciousness to look to

community, to look to organization, to be part of transforming the

chaos in this, in, i- in this world.

And we are powerful.

One of the reasons why people, working people across the globe

are being attacked is precisely because we hold a lot of power.

And if violence is what the enemy is utilizing, it's because there's no

other way of keeping us down, which means that we have a lot of strength.

And so I think, in many ways we are to be reminded of that more often than not.

We can't not, lose hope.

I was watching a video of Paulo Freire, which is one of my most favorite people

on this planet, although he's passed.

And they asked him, "What do you do not to lose hope?" And he said, "I resist."

I resist losing hope, and I hope we resist losing hope because ultimately

once we give up hope, the enemy wins.

Our hope lies in our will to fight and in the will for many other people to fight.

We at, at IFCO Passages for Peach- with Passages for Peace, which is

an organization that I'm currently directing, which is the organization

that actually brought me into Cuba Solidarity work when I was a teenager.

I was 13 when I started doing work with IFCO Passages for Peace,

and now at 45, here I am again.

And and in this moment in which Cuba, which has been a beacon of hope and a

beacon of resistance, is being harshly and inhumanely attacked by the US, we

need to understand what's at stake.

We need to understand that

If we lose Cuba, we digress as humanity.

The attempt is to kill the hope that Cuba gives the world, and we

cannot allow for that to happen.

And so I would like for folks to look into IFCO Passages for Peace.

The website is www.ifconews.org.

We are currently working to send another container, 60,000-pound

container of humanitarian aid.

They wanna block solidarity, and we're saying we're not

gonna allow that to happen.

I would like for folks to keep their eyes open in what is happening with Puerto Rico

and the remilitarization of Puerto Rico as an strategic point for the United States.

We want to be able to be in solidarity and fight hand-in-hand with the

Puerto Rican people to reach their liberation and their independence.

They have been a colony of the United States for way too long.

And, the rest of the continent and the rest of the world to

continue solidarity with Palestine.

They want to wipe out the Palestinians, and the Palestinians, they are stubborn

about their liberation, and we should be stubborn about our solidarity.

And so let us continue to be very much connected and committed

to the liberation of our people in any place we find ourselves.

Spiritually, in terms of work, we need to continue to resist to lose hope, and

we can only do that through our work.

It's a great time to stop and pause and reflect.

And appreciate your you being here with us Reverend.

And Monisha, appreciate you co-hosting with me.

All right.

Thank you everyone for joining us, listening to us today.

Follow us on Instagram, follow us on Facebook, any social media, any podcast,

any place you get your podcasts.

And also follow Reverend Claudia De La Cruz and what is it?

IFCO, right?

Yeah.

Folks could look at the website www.ifconews.org.

We also have Instagram.

It's 1cloud, so C-L-A-U-D-9 on Instagram

there you go.

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