Responsibility to Protect (R2P) & the Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza w/ Nina Ng - Ep 161

this is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan, Jo

vonni, Shiloh, Monisha , and Mike

welcome, everyone, to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about U.

S.

foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war.

I'm Jovanni.

Thank you for being with us today.

Here with me is my co host, Mike.

Mike, how are you doing today?

I'm good.

It's a beautiful day in Cincinnati, ohio.

Right on.

Beautiful day, right?

We have a special guest with us today.

There is R2P, or the Responsibility to Protect.

This is a Blair clan doctrine that emerged in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

As a new approach to humanitarian intervention, Plain Articulated

Doctrine in a 1999 speech stating the U.

S.

will act to stop mass killings based on race, ethnicity, or religion

when it's in its power to do by 2001, a report by the International

Commission on Intervention and State Sovereignty formalized R2P principles.

One of the most controversial principles of this doctrine is that it states

that if a state fails to protect its people, The international community

has a responsibility to intervene and humanitarian concerns can justify

military actions even without UN Security Council authorization in some cases.

Notable cases to R2P has been Kosovo in 1999, East Timor in 1999, Sierra

Leone in 2000, and more recently in Libya 2011 and Syria 2013.

In Libya, Obama justified the intervention as a hypothetical genocide that would most

likely occur in the eastern province of Benghazi, where rebels had taken hold if

Libyan forces were to retake the city.

A new no fly zone was immediately declared and NATO commenced an intense

bombing campaign on Libyan forces while assisting in providing cover to various

factions of militant groups on the ground, many of them international jihadist

factions, who made their way to Libya.

Eventually, the Libyan states would collapse, the Libyan leader would get

captured, lynched, and murdered by one of these factions operating on the ground.

To this day, Libya doesn't have a stable government, remains

in a state of civil war.

And is contributing to regional instability.

The R2P principle clashes with principles enshrined in the UN Charter, which

essentially upholds the principle of state sovereignty, the right to

self determination, and the right to non interference in domestic issues.

Under R2P principles, human rights are supreme to state sovereignty,

self determination, and the right to non interference in humanitarian

intervention is justified.

Now this brings me to Israel.

Since October 8th, Israel has been on a genocidal rampage, killing and ethnically

cleansing a large number of the 2.

1 million Palestinians living in Gaza on October 7th.

Corralling many survivors in a small corner of the southern tip of Gaza

close to the Egyptian border, while at the same time displacing untold numbers

of Palestinians in the West Bank.

It is estimated that over 40, 000 Palestinians have been killed

in Gaza since October 8th, the majority being women and children.

The British medical journal, The Lancet, reports the death toll to

be closer to 180, 000, essentially 8 percent of the Gaza population.

Israel is weaponizing food, water, aid, and electrical power.

It has razed whole cities and towns to the ground.

Blown schools, universities, and hospitals, frequently attacks and

kills Palestinians in designated safe zones, and has killed an estimated

500 healthcare workers, 182 UN staff members, and at least 116 journalists.

Even the other day, it attacked a convoy from the UN World Food Program, killing

some of its members, while Western governments looked the other way.

So why isn't there an R2P for Israel?

Why does Israel's so called right to self defend trump Clinton Blair's

doctrine of humanitarian intervention?

The ICG found it plausible that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide

Convention in Gaza and the ICC has issued arrest warrants to the Israeli leadership.

Yet, Western governments bend over backwards to defend and justify

what Israel is doing in Palestine.

Not only that, they make sure Israel has enough munitions and bombs to continue

doing what it's doing with impunity.

Just last month, U.

S.

Congress approved another 3.

5 billion in military aid to Israel.

So what happened to so called Western values and the rhetoric

of upholding the rule of law?

Why doesn't international law apply to Israel?

I want to introduce you to someone who has first hand experience of what it's

like in Gaza and what the Palestinians are going through, and basically

how Israel has crotched flank in the operations in Gaza and West Bank.

Your name is Nina Ying.

She is an aid worker who has recently come back from Gaza.

Nina is an American nurse, humanitarian health care leader, and founder

of the NGO Help Me Live USA.

She has over 14 years of experience in various sectors, including emergency

nursing, emergency management, both in New York City hospitals and global

conflict zones, hospitals administration, humanitarian Currently, she and her

non profit organization operate in Gaza to provide aid and are committed to

this mission for the next six months.

Nina has served in other combat zones and refugee crisis with her NGO in places like

Ukraine, Mosul, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, Haiti, Bangladesh, and Mexico.

Nina, how are you doing today?

Thank you for having me.

Nina, tell us a little bit about your background.

And, what motivated you to come to this line of work?

And, what inspired you to help, find me, live, help me live USA and focus

on humanitarian aid in conflict zones?

Thank you.

Initially in my career, I started as an ER nurse, which

was a very busy career for me.

I got a lot of good experience.

I learned how to work in fast paced places like New York City.

We dealt with a lot of traumas.

We would often have many patients who were very sick.

In time, I found myself Going as a volunteer on various missions.

That's how I got started in humanitarian aid.

Eventually I got to a point where I felt more pulled towards doing work

overseas for underprivileged people than my patients in the hospitals.

The work is still important, but there was a part of me that really wanted to do.

Full time work in humanitarian aid.

I worked as a director for several medical NGOs, the work is really wonderful.

What inspired me to start my own NGO was I wanted to branch outside of only medical.

For example, right now, we are working on education in Gaza.

We do food distribution.

Water distribution.

And when I was in Gaza, we'd organize events with the children and we

focus on their mental health, on their psychosocial well being.

So having my own NGO has just given a lot more range to what

kind of services we can provide.

And it's been going very well.

And we hope to continue for as long as possible.

So when it comes to Gaza, how is it that your

organization is able to enter Gaza?

My understanding is that there's really a control or interest entry point,

and they're pretty much regulated what comes in and out of, the area.

This is correct.

Israel, this is unique to this war zone.

For example, in Ukraine, we didn't ask Russia for permission to work in Ukraine.

Russia didn't control the movement of goods and food products and things

like that or personnel in Ukraine.

Same for Iraq.

We were able to move in and out pretty freely.

For Gaza, everything is under a microscope.

Under the complete control of Israel, this includes personnel, any trucks,

any items we're trying to send in and out, including medical supplies,

food, water, sanitary equipment.

In this case, we are able to gain access as NGOs, and.

We work with different networks.

So the United Nations is involved, the World Health Organization is involved,

and we all coordinate with Israel.

They have their own team that helps manage the humanitarian aid aspect

called COGAT, and they will dictate how many people can go in and out.

Sometimes the numbers can be very low.

Sometimes there may be no one who can go in at all.

For example, this week, I know of three fellow NGOs that were

denied entrance to go inside.

There are pathways to go in, but, there are times when it's troublesome,

when it's tedious, or when we can't bring a lot of items with us.

How Help Me Live USA is able to do it is we're integrated with this humanitarian

network, and we're able to put our name on the list, and hope we can

gain access when we want to go inside.

The two times we went earlier this year were through the Rafah crossing.

Now, that's where the Egyptian border is, Egypt and Gaza.

When we were going that way, we had a little bit more flexibility.

We could bring a lot of suitcases with us, and all the NGO workers, we'd bring

in, sometimes it would be a team of two, and we'd bring in over 50 suitcases of

medication, supplies, water, diapers.

Little things like coffee that they can't get inside, formula for babies.

Ever since the Rafah border closed, all the humanitarians have been redirected

to go from Jordan, then Israel, and the Karim Shalom crossing, and then into Gaza.

Since moving the pathway for where humanitarian aid workers can go

in, there have also been severe restrictions on what we can bring.

Every person going in is limited to one to two suitcases, you can't bring

an excess of food anymore, you're not allowed to bring medications, you can

only bring so many electronic devices like your phones or laptops, from my

perspective we are, being constricted severely to what we can bring in.

There are lots of volunteers who want to go in.

Some of the NGOs have lists of 1, 500 volunteers who have

signed up and are ready to go.

Each volunteer that goes will love to bring as many suitcases of food items,

medications, and supplies as possible.

But the way that the pathway is going now is a few can get in, of these thousands,

a few can get in, and each person can only bring so little, most of which should be.

Our own food that we eat and our own personal belongings, rather than

bringing in actual aid that people are willing to donate, people are willing

to physically bring in and hand out.

Even funds, right?

The people donating funds around the world.

I see a lot of, organizations, asking for, donations for the people in Gaza, even,

funds get regulated and halted, right?

There, from the physical carrying in aspect, it's been restricted.

So when we were crossing from Egypt, we could bring, it was restricted.

Not unlimited, but no one was really checking.

The Egyptian soldiers, scan our bags and things, but they're not really

emphasizing that there's a restriction.

And neither was Israel.

They didn't say there was a cap on how much we could bring.

Back then, it was easier to bring more cash, and this was the easiest way to get

money in, to reduce fees, and also to make sure you know where your money's going.

Then, when the route got changed to go through Israel, All the humanitarians were

told you can't bring more than 2, 500 U.

S.

dollars.

That's a huge difference, because before some groups were bringing

in, if they were able to raise this money, 10, 000 or 20, 000.

Now, what we are able to do as an NGO, we can send to our

Palestinian staff inside of Gaza.

Thankfully, we've had success, we have not had restrictions, we are a registered U.

S.

501c3 charity, I've heard of individuals who try to support Palestinians on their

own that either the money might not be received on the Gazan side, or people

with whatever accounts they have around the world may not be able to send it in.

But thankfully, we've been able to send our salaries in, we've been able

to send money for medications in, and also funding for our school project.

Thank you very much.

Indeed.

So exactly what kind of, I know that you're a nurse and you do a lot of,

medical aid, but, what other works that you do, while you're in Gaza?

I was in Gaza.

We visited a lot of hospitals and clinics.

This gave us an idea of where we should put our resources.

I use that time also to meet with.

key players inside, like the director of the Palestinian Ministry of Health, the

head of the World Health Organization, and members from the United Nations.

I also spent time speaking with COGAT representatives from Israel, as we spoke

to more people, it became clear that Increasing the capacity to see patients

was important, especially as hospitals are being evacuated or clinics have

to shut down most recently, Darabella, we have other NGOs who had clinics

there, and they had to shut down.

So we spent a lot of time understanding the entire humanitarian aid network,

most importantly, the medical.

We also went to visit a school, which became an IDP stands for

Internally Displaced Persons.

So the, it used to be a school, but in Rafa, this is in April, the school

we went to visit was in Rafa, and it became a place where people lived.

So families lived there.

There was no longer schools or classrooms.

However, I did meet a teacher there, and she told me that despite not having

support anymore, because now they have to run this like a shelter, that's

what it was, a shelter, she still would try to have classes with her students.

So during that time, I wasn't sure if I can help her, but.

In time, I watched her and the children around her get displaced from Rafa,

when Israel did the ground invasion, and they all moved over to the Amawasi area.

It was during that time when my organization we sat down and we said,

we need to do something for these people, we can't just watch them get

displaced for the 9th and 10th time, and there's bombs dropping around

them and gunshots all over the place.

We set up a school there.

We are able to set up water tank distributions.

With a partner NGO, We organized the 25, 000 liter water distribution.

We went to an area where people clearly needed it because they would all run over

with their jugs, including children and then we would Visit families tent by tent.

The Palestinians so stoic and welcoming despite what's going on.

They still look well put together and they'll still show us their

tents, they'll invite us in.

They'll ask us to have tea and coffee with them, even though they're scarce

items now, part of what My NGO Helped Me Live USA was able to do is Really make

that human connection, take the time to meet families, talk to them, let them ask

us questions, share a laugh with them.

At that time we had bought new clothes from Cairo and then we went

to distribute it to kids tent to tent and we would an event out of it.

Like we size them up and say, all right, this fits you.

This color looks good on you or ask them what they wanted.

So we try to add a human.

Human aspect to this and not just hand stuff out and leave like

you can do it that way but we would like to engage with people.

And lastly, one of my favorite things was we also bought a number of toys

and we went to these children in their hospital beds, and then we would

give the toys to the kids, and also some to their brothers and sisters

and play with them a little bit.

So those are the things that spent most of our time doing in Gaza.

Thank you so much, for all of that information.

It's an incredible, life experience.

I know you have a wealth of information that a lot of people

all over the world, would love to gain more access to and understand.

Thank you for all the work you've done.

This is a great opportunity to hear about what's actually happening, in Palestine.

One of the questions that comes to mind for me is, there are so many

people that, would love to do something to go to Palestine and do aid.

I was just wondering, what does that scene look like?

What does the overall, humanitarian, the many humanitarian NGOs

and different institutions and organizations, what does that look like?

How do people actually get access to Palestine?

And who are some of the big players that are doing things?

I've seen a pretty wide range of volunteers going into Gaza.

Some, it was their first war zone mission, which I have to say,

initially, it did make me nervous.

However, I had my first time war zone, and so does everyone else, in fact, my current

volunteer Gaza operations manager, who's doing an excellent job, went for the first

time in March, first war zone experience.

It helps to have Some kind of experience, of course, depending on

what kinds of groups you're going with.

If you go with the larger NGOs, they're going to want to see years of experience.

They're going to want to see the types of experience, if you've been

in a lot of other conflict zones.

Some of the large organizations that I can name off, like PAMA, Palestinian

American Medical Association, or MedGlobal, that I can think of

offhand, they're doing excellent work.

But I would imagine they're more selective because they also have a larger pool.

The smaller NGOs, like GLIA and my own, we can look at a candidate

and see if, they're worth taking a risk and bringing them in.

With any kind of war zone experience, any NGO should handle with care and make

sure that we're taking care of the mental health of the people going in and out.

It is a very difficult mission.

There were times when the houses we were living in were shaking

because of airstrikes around us.

We could hear it.

We could feel it.

Even when we were staying in the hospitals, we would hear bombings

sometimes if I knew other NGO workers, that were friends of mine, we'd text

each other when we could get service and check in on each other or say Hey,

I heard the bombing was really bad in Rafa tonight, or it's really bad

near European Gaza Hospital tonight.

So it's a very difficult mission.

A lot of people I know do want to go to Gaza.

You have to be in a place where you know that you can die.

There are people who went in who have families, who have children, and who have

parents, like I have my own family too.

I don't have children, but I met a lot of people who do.

Mothers who came in, some with very young infants, some fathers

who had a child, to be born soon.

You have to come to terms with that.

As we all enter, we talk about how we make our wills set our beneficiaries

and say goodbye to our families.

It's a very different war zone, in Ukraine and Iraq, there

was always a retreating point.

In Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, like Bakhmut, was very dangerous, but you

can go back to the West or to Poland whenever there's no restriction for that.

In Mosul, when the fighting got tough at the front line, we

could retreat back to Kurdistan.

In Gaza, even as internationals and humanitarians, you

are stuck in this space.

The World Health Organization themselves have said this publicly that they

may not be able to help anyone.

They may not be able to help with an evacuation out.

Let's say you have a minor injury, like you broke your ankle, you might

not get evacuated within 36 hours.

You need to bring an emergency bag with you.

Consider if you will be, lost or trapped somewhere for days

and no one can get to you.

I don't know if you know about, know this about Gaza the cellular and internet

connectivity is very poor inside.

When I, when my groups went in, we would have five different kinds of SIM cards.

You can get an Egyptian SIM, you can get an Israeli eSIM, you can try to

activate your USA international plan.

All kinds of things, and most of the time it didn't work.

We could have, satellite phones or something, none of it worked.

Gaza is an extremely difficult place to work in.

I know that people want to help, and one way I would urge also to help,

At the moment, it's looking for ways to get involved to support NGOs,

and this doesn't only mean donating.

There are other things that people can do, right?

And I can also explain that a little bit more if you would like.

But for the most part, because there's such a backlog in volunteers

in this response, it's unusual.

But since it's so hard to even send people in, it's more likely that a lot of NGOs

will take people who are experienced.

This doesn't mean that it will be like this forever.

Perhaps when the war is over, there will be an opportunity for more people to

go in, but we don't know how that looks because if Israel is still in control,

pre war, pre October, you couldn't just go in and out of Gaza anyway.

There were still restrictions.

It really depends on what things look like as time goes.

Wow.

Yeah, that's an incredible amount of information.

Thank you for that.

That's a lot to process.

I know one of the major things that you focus on personally is, dealing with the

trauma of the people dealing with the war.

I know as a veteran, I took part in the, illegal invasions

of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I definitely walked away with, lots of trauma and it took me a decade to come

to terms with it and understand it.

I had the luxury of having PTSD in a way, because I got to walk

away from it and deal with it.

When you're in Gaza.

There is no PTSD because everybody's just constantly in a state of trauma.

Your experience with that, living in that is really valuable because, I

know so many people even in America, dealing with trauma you have that

concentrated very personal experience.

How do you deal with that?

People who are constantly living in a state of trauma, how do you get people to

a better place and help people recover?

While in Gaza and even outside of Gaza, just maintaining

that line of communication and human to human interaction is helpful.

This way, Palestinians don't feel like they're alone.

In hard times when they were evacuating from Rafa to where they are now, they

verbalize, at least when they get to talk to us, even though we're not physically

there, they've said that it feels like you're with me thank you for your support.

We try to joke around with them, Say silly things and you'd be surprised.

A lot of the Palestinians are not moping about their situation.

They're not talking about how sad it is or how rough it is,

they don't talk about hate.

They don't talk about who's doing what in this war.

They're just still trying to live a normal life.

Now, we talk a lot about work and, the logistics of how to run the clinic,

how to run the school, and I think it's nice because it keeps them busy, they're

giving us fresh ideas, we talk about the future, how we can expand, new ways to

make our schoolchildren happy, and, engage them in their education, I think these

are really important because other than that, They would be sitting in the hot

tent with limited food and water, with nothing to do, many of them not working.

The ones who have been lucky to get work through an NGO or maybe somewhere else,

at least they have somewhat of a routine.

But majority of the people, including the children, they're

there, not doing a whole lot.

So when we're inside, you're not going to see as much of.

The PTSD, because they haven't had a chance, right?

We worry about the aftermath and what happens when people

actually leave from the situation.

Right now, they're in survival mode.

The best way we can Deal with it and help them is just being present

with them, being mindful of their situation we check in on them.

If we know something happened close to where our staff are living,

we ask how everything is going.

A few weeks ago, one of our staff nurses lost two of her sisters.

That same week, one of our logistics coordinators lost And this is something

that, yes, is happening frequently, but we still do our best to support them.

They really don't talk about it a lot or complain but we give them

the space to when they want to.

There's one particular person.

He's a hospital director, and he also works with the

Palestinian Ministry of Health.

I got to meet him several times, and I'm still working with him closely now.

I remember when we first sat down with him, it was my first night in Gaza, and

he pulled out his phone, and showed us.

A photo of his wife and four children, they were killed in a single airstrike.

He was sitting there, very calm, telling us this story.

A lot of the other volunteers who went in after us would say they

would hear the same story from him.

During our days He would take us, we'd be in the van and he'd drive by

the site where they were killed and he'd say you see where that whatever

washing machine or fax machine, that's where their bodies were.

The stories are gruesome, but this is a way to help let them have

some kind of therapeutic release by reflecting by sharing the stories.

And for us, just helping them, and for them to have somebody to talk to.

This guy, he doesn't speak English, and I don't speak Arabic sometimes

we use Google Translate or we just send each other emojis, and

he's, old enough to be my father.

But we'll sometimes send each other emojis, like I'll send him the coffee

emoji, and he'll send like a flower emoji or like joking around like the punch

emoji, like little things like that.

So that's how we've stayed engaged.

And I think it's important for us to keep doing that.

So for me, it's important that my NGO does this.

We have lively group chats with each of our teams.

We put the team leaders together.

And I think engaging them in work is important too, and

talking about the future.

Because, yes, a lot of people are dying, but a lot of them are going to make it out

of this, and they will have PTSD later.

They will have a lot of issues later.

We want to maintain these relationships and be there with them along the way.

As it comes, we will try to help them however we can.

Nina, you mentioned, earlier about, bringing water to communities.

One of the first things that, when the conflict, escalated to where

we are now, October 7th, one of the first things that the Israeli military

did was to cut water and power.

To the residents of Gaza, since then, they regulate how much water can come in.

They also, cut food distribution.

So they're using famine as a weapon as well.

Recently, news of a resurgence of polio,

polio was a disease that in the last century, in the beginning of the last

century and century before, it was, very devastating, particularly to children.

And the mid 20th century, there was an effort to eradicate polio.

And, it was nearly eradicated.

So there haven't been any polio cases in recent decades.

And so now, now there's news, there's a resurgence of polio.

Yeah.

In, in Gaza, it has a lot to do with unsanitary conditions, lack of water,

lack of, clean water, the fact that there's so much death around and

carcasses and everything contaminates pretty much everything, right?

Create an environment for this disease to proliferate.

Recently, the Israeli government, agreed to allow, vaccinations into Gaza.

I think like 600 vaccinations to vaccinate, children against polio, right?

My question is, the contradiction here is, they have, no qualms in attacking tents,

killing children, et cetera, but why would they agree to allow the vaccination

of these children when they pretty much disregard their lives otherwise?

From an international perspective, it comes from a

place of selfishness because polio can spread to Israeli soldiers

and the international community.

It may not be the way that it's presented, but let's say polio couldn't be.

Spread to others.

Let's say for some reason it can only just stay in the area that it is.

It probably would not gain this amount of attention, this amount of

action, these pockets of ceasefire.

So that is the reason why, because they don't want to

let polio go outside of Gaza.

They don't want it to infect internationals,

including, Israeli soldiers.

And I think that is the main reason why you're seeing this rapid

action rather than letting it wait.

Because you're right, it is very easy for Israel to wipe out buildings

of children and women, the elderly.

So I don't think that when it comes to the vaccination that it's

about the children themselves.

It's about not letting it potentially spread to internationals and causing,

let's say, an outbreak in another country.

That's the unfortunate and selfish truth of why polio is being taken seriously.

If it were something else, like hepatitis A, for example, is not as fatal as polio,

but also it's not something that's as commonly going to spread to others.

We already knew for a long time there's been an outbreak of hepatitis A, but

there isn't that kind of response to help control it or treat people who have it.

So in short the reason why, like when there's something in a conflict that's

going to affect other countries, that's when All parties will take

the time to address it because they don't want to see it affecting them,

it's not, I don't think because of the children in Gaza.

Thank you for that information.

Go ahead, Mike.

Are there any other, medical issues like that, that maybe we're

not hearing about in the press?

I know you just mentioned hepatitis A and honestly, I hadn't heard that.

So I'm just curious, is there anything else going on?

Nothing to the level of polio.

And the reason is polio will inevitably lead to paralysis and or death.

Hepatitis A, fewer people will die from it.

A lot of the symptoms are more like inconveniences, like diarrhea, or, like

stomachache or something like that.

So there isn't anything else that.

would concern the international community in that sense, in terms of disease.

Otherwise, there's still plenty of other things spreading because of the

unsanitary conditions or like the lack of treatment, lack of vaccinations.

But polio is the first one that is something that people are

more concerned about because of the severity of the virus.

And the fact that it could spread outside of Gaza.

Dean, you mentioned, how many times you've been in Gaza,

since this conflict started?

So I went in March.

I went in April.

When I went to Cairo in May with the intention of going in, the border closed.

So I've gone in twice.

I'm going to try to go the end of next month.

Are you noticing differences every time you go?

What are the most challenging things, from the first time to the second

one, the second time you've gone?

It seems like what I'm hearing here.

And there is news blackout here in the United States.

We don't really get a lot of information of what's happening on the ground.

Most of what we get here comes from the Israeli government or Israeli media

sources, and they just get parroted here.

What are the most challenging, if you were to compare both times that you've

been, are they each unique or escalation?

What are the most challenging things that you've seen?

It gets worse each time, and since my last time was April,

it's actually gotten worse since.

Even though I didn't go in physically, because of the way we're attached and we

have personnel on the ground, we watch the escalation get worse in March, we

went in on the first or second week at the beginning of Ramadan, and there was

already talks about a Rafa invasion then.

So when we had gone in, we were expecting that might be a possibility

and that we might get stuck.

It just didn't happen until May.

But then going back in April, you start seeing more and more areas evacuated

and more and more hospitals evacuated.

Up until now, where.

The whole population is squished to 11%.

I think 11 percent of the Gaza Strip is now the humanitarian

zone, which really isn't because it's still getting bombed around.

Each month since March has just gotten worse and worse.

The Jarabella evacuation was a big deal because a lot of people

were evacuated in that section.

Now they're squished down to Khan Yunis.

Rafa is Totally gone.

So all that population from the south was squished into the middle area.

Like everyone, 1.

5 million, people are all squished into this small area.

And it's getting worse each time.

Each month, or every few weeks, we see another hospital getting evacuated, we

also work with people who are inside, the directors, who are evacuating

these hospitals, they're showing us the videos, and sometimes I've asked

them, where are these patients going?

And they said, they're going home to die, or wait, to wait for death

at home, something like that.

So It is, like, when you think it's already bad, it just keeps getting worse,

more people are dying, we don't see a resolution coming, or a reason why it

continues this way, because the Gaza Strip is very small, it's the size of

Manhattan, I think, more or less, and if they've already wiped out Close to

90 percent of the area what is left?

What is the reason?

Is it really that they're fighting Hamas or is it like they're trying to make the

Palestinians as miserable as possible to kill them off and to draw out the

famine and dehydration and the disease and like the poverty and the suffering?

That's what it's, that's really what it seems like.

And it's scary to know that.

The anniversary, October 7th, of when this war started is coming up.

Sometimes, things can escalate even more, as a anniversary gift, I don't know.

Same like during Ramadan, like we were expecting things to escalate

because it's the holy month and the like a holiday for Muslims.

So it's just hard.

From our perspective, we just go day by day and we do our best.

You can't count anything out.

It's just more and more terrible things happening every day.

And we just try to do what's in our control.

But I imagine that.

Even from, I imagine when I go in September, in October, that it's going

to be completely different from what it was in April because some of the friends

of mine and aid workers who have gone in or, the locals showing us videos

and photos, there's more destruction, the buildings, everything is destroyed.

People who used to happen to still have houses, their homes were destroyed.

They'll show me pictures and videos of their homes destroyed.

No, I think there's got, there's like very little left.

And I don't even know what is going to continue to happen.

But like I said, we will do what we can and we will do our best to stand by our

Palestinian colleagues and our friends.

And then we'll just go from there.

At some time, there will be a chance to rebuild.

I don't know when that will be, but we'll be there when the time comes.

Do you stay connected with some of your Palestinian colleagues and

people that you meet when you leave?

Oh, yes, for sure.

Yes.

Most of the people that we get to sit and have a conversation with, we share our

phone numbers on WhatsApp or social media.

And even some people who I never met, like we've connected on social

media and we still, we may form a connection and talk like that.

Some people have reached out who let us know I'm a physician or I'm a nurse,

I'm a teacher, if you ever need someone to volunteer or to work just call me.

I even talked to this guy his name is Fadel, I found him on Instagram, but

he's in Gaza and he feeds the animals and he treats the donkeys and horses

from their injuries and things like that.

The people we've met, we've stayed in close contact with, I speak to

them, Probably more than I speak to my family, which it's, it sounds

horrible, but in a way it's I don't know when the last time it will be that

I'm really talking to some of these.

Some of these Palestinians, so I try to make the most of it.

And yeah, so we stay in close touch.

We'll, like I said, we're on, we're connected on social media,

we're connected on WhatsApp.

And then it's hard to get on phone calls sometimes, but once in a while we will

we will get on a call and if we're able to do a video call, like for example,

out of the blue today, one of the.

Coordinators that work with us in Gaza at one of our clinics, he just got on a

FaceTime, they happen to have connection.

And I didn't even see the face of one of our doctors and our nurse.

His name is Mohammed and her name is Toka.

And then I was like, the biggest smile came on my face and theirs.

Because we really had we always text, and they're sending us patient

information and things, and we're talking about work stuff, but we saw

each other finally on a video chat today, and it was just, it felt amazing.

I was really happy, and I do hope that I can go meet them in person soon.

I think it's special to have this kind of connection.

I bet it is.

I bet it is.

Go ahead, Mike.

Again, thank you so much.

This is all priceless information.

Like Jovanni said, there is a media blackout in the United States, so it

is, it's really hard unless you're like a political person, unless

you have a special kind of media literacy, it can be really hard to

find out what's actually happening.

My question is, do you have any references for media outlets?

Do you have any, and do you have any advice about like how to think

about Palestine and how to go about examining what's real and what are lies?

I know that's a tough question, but yeah.

No, I personally, I, for a long time now, I don't listen to US media and

like your, like your big name TV stations because there's influence no matter what.

It's good to be informed, but I quite like TikTok because.

As we all know the US is trying to ban it because anyone is allowed to go and

make their videos including the press from the young press from Gaza, the

Palestinians, and they're able to do this with an uncensored and unfiltered way.

When it comes to meta, like Facebook and Instagram, even NGO colleagues of mine,

if they post something with a little wrong wording their post might get banned.

So I quite.

I really like TikTok because you can see the actual faces and voices of people from

Palestine, especially the young ones who are trying to give an accurate message.

One thing I do caution is not getting caught up too much in it because it

can people we all talk about this a lot like sometimes, let's say you don't

have a form of involvement, and all you do is watch it like it can be easy

to become depressed to become numb and then like to want to turn away from it

because you're seeing so much of it.

So what I like to do in my talks and even let's say in podcasts or like

in person sessions where I share my experiences I ask People who want

to get involved to research some organizations that they feel aligned with.

Everyone might have a different one, right?

Some might be more interested in helping children.

Some might be more interested in healthcare.

Some might be more interested in mental health.

But to find a place where you can fit in.

Because there's some people who I've met along the way.

That are not a part of an NGO, who don't have a foundation, who don't have the

support of a large team, but they're still connected with families in Gaza,

and they're still helping with minor things, like doing a water distribution,

or doing a tent distribution.

Because my NGO, and a lot of the other NGOs who have gotten involved, and

we're very lucky because we, have gained access, and like you said, a view of

Gaza in a way that the public might not.

We can explain how to do certain things and try to give some

advice on how to set something up.

I'll give you one example.

My NGO is small.

I just started it in October.

And I'm the only person working full time.

I have a handful of volunteers.

Many of them are excellent, but they do work full time.

We can only expand as much as we can in terms of personnel and funding.

However, we have the knowledge that we've gone in to seek and find.

Since we learned how to set up medical tents, while we don't have the funding

to keep setting up a lot, We found this doctor, his name is Ismael, and he was

doing things out of pocket, he was trying to just fundraise on his own, and he

would have a free clinic for people, for Palestinians, and eventually we linked

him up with another small NGO and we taught him That NGO, how to get through

the process, like getting it registered with the Ministry of Health, how you might

buy your medications, how you could hire a staff member if you need extra people.

Like we have a whole list ourselves of doctors and nurses looking for work.

And in that way we help them get that set up and then off, off they go, and

it's really a beautiful thing because otherwise, They may not have known.

They hadn't gone into Gaza, but we were able to give give them that piece

of information and we're still here if they have any questions, right?

It's just that it helps that they're doing the physical work.

They're doing the fundraising for that tent.

And if somebody else comes up, we can help them along with

another tent and things like that.

So there are ways to get involved.

It just depends on what people want to do.

Some people don't want to to give money without knowing.

Like I said, you have to do your research, you have to find out

what the organizations are doing, and which one speaks to you.

And some people say they don't have the money, but they have some time.

Then, okay, you can do a community fundraiser.

There are kids who sell cookies and things candy to, to raise it.

Doesn't matter what it is, but I love seeing children get involved as well.

So there are ways to get involved.

When it comes to the media, I would say just be careful.

You have to be careful of what you're looking at.

And in the end, like I said, I think that it's best to talk to people

inside, rather than trying to decipher what's being fed to us on the outside.

You mentioned that you started your your NGO in October.

The other conflict zones that you went to, you went with the other NGOs.

That's right, yes.

So I went, I would go as a volunteer.

I've gone with many other NGOs as a volunteer and then I work

as a director for several NGOs.

And when I was in those positions is when I got a lot of my experience

in the disaster zones, war zones and conflict zones and refugee crisis.

Places that refugees were going to.

Absolutely.

Speaking of media

Gaza Oh, sorry.

Gaza Gaza is my NGO's first big mission.

I see.

Speaking of media, I don't know, Mike is a media person.

I'm just a baby media person.

I just started, right?

But I do pay attention.

I do follow a lot of international geopolitics,

geopolitical events and whatnot.

For a while.

You live overseas.

We've been talking about how, media pretty much here in the United

States take whatever Israel, Israeli official state of face value.

They tend to scrutinize and place doubt anything a Palestinian says.

They tend to attack, attack alternative views like in the past.

Just like you mentioned about TikTok, in the past, the only news that

will get on, they had more control of the news of the narrative here

in the United States in the past.

Like I came to a Palestinian issue was in the early, by the second, in the early

90s, or mid 90s, by the second Intifada.

Second Intifada, that's when I became aware of.

of Palestine.

Before that, I had no clue.

I've been passively following here and there until more recently, in the

last couple of decades, I've been more involved and more following even more.

But the way media here frames things they frame it, at least in this conflict,

they frame it as if it's a Hamas Israeli conflict alone, the Palestinians are

just innocent bystanders, or they have nothing to do with it, and Israel is

doing everything it can to protect its civilians and Hamas is just some

foreign entity, just, it just planted itself within the Palestinian people.

So this has many Americans confused.

Here in the United States, they tend to see this as a

Palestinian Israeli conflict.

Some people even say this has been a conflict that's been happening

thousands of years, right?

And we know it's not.

But that's what some people, say, with you, you went to Ukraine, I

remember when the Ukraine conflict started here, people hosting the

Ukrainian flags everywhere, in state buildings, all over the place, right?

When Israel, when the conflict happened here on October 7th, you saw the same

thing with the Israeli flag, people hoisting the Israeli flag everywhere.

And government buildings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?

And where you live, how is this being taken over there

where you're at right now?

Because I know you're the country you're in, I haven't mentioned the country,

I don't know if you want me to mention the country you're in, but the country

you're in tend to be aligned with U.

S.

geopolitics, for a few decades now.

How is the narrative over there being told?

I'm currently in Thailand, I'm in Phuket.

I don't live here, I'm a nomad, but I come here a few times a year.

I was in the UK prior, and to speak about how it is in some countries,

like here in Thailand, here in Phuket, it isn't as apparent, there isn't

a huge population community that's talking, that's for it or against it.

There aren't a lot of protests.

But earlier today, I was on a call with a bunch of different activists and some

of them working with the United Nations.

They're from Bangkok, most of them, and one in Chiang Mai,

so the bigger cities here.

And they're for Palestine.

They're talking about organizing protests and things like that.

I don't know how else I don't know what the government thinks of it.

I believe I saw that Thailand donated.

money to Palestine.

I'm not sure if that's 100%.

But for the most part, when I'm in other like, when I'm here, I don't feel a whole

lot like I don't see flags anywhere.

I don't, but I don't see I don't really see people for pro like pro or against it.

I've heard from some of the internationals who live here that a

lot of expats tend to just stay to themselves or with their own lives.

Transcribed And that the Muslim community is quiet here.

Now, I had just come from the UK.

I was visiting a friend, but also there for work.

And I don't know if you heard that the riots there have been really bad.

They were throwing acid at Muslims.

They were attacking all kinds of minorities.

So this wasn't even, I don't think it was only like a Palestine thing.

Maybe it erupted because of that.

However, there are a lot of tensions in the UK right now.

A lot of racism.

And I was in New York, I think, before that.

And I did, I tend to also just be around groups who are more pro Palestine.

So when I'm traveling around the world, it's hard to say.

I don't necessarily feel like There's a lot going on in terms of activity, then if

I'm, let's say, seeking those groups, then I'll find some who are for Palestine, but

currently here in I don't notice anything that stands out, and this is probably the

third time that I've been here this year.

I usually stay here for about a month.

Again, I'm in Phuket, which is more of a beach and island life.

So maybe people are not as tuned into it.

I've done some events here where people have heard a little bit

of the news, but they're not like very informed or very into it.

And some have become more engaged, which is really awesome.

But I think there might be more activity in the larger cities like Bangkok.

I have a question.

We know there are, there's a lot of ways to protest and to

stand up for Palestinians and stand up for the right thing.

And one of those things.

What we can do is through art and culture and literature,

and you are a published author.

You wrote a book which has five stars across the board on Amazon.

It's titled Deeds, Not Words, A Story About Iraq, Love, and Mania.

It looks like an amazing book.

I've read some excerpts, and I've ordered it, so it's in the

mail, and I plan on reading it.

Can you talk a little bit about your book and why it's important.

Thank you.

It was a very big accomplishment for me.

I Finished writing it and published it last year, last

summer, probably like last June.

And big chunk of my novel, it's a semi fiction novel, a big

chunk of it talks about my time working in a war zone in Iraq.

And this was my first time.

Now, that experience was early 2017.

So it's taken me years to really process it.

And to be able to sit down and write it out, it took me a long time to be

able to do that, but I personally felt it was important I suffered also from

PTSD after my first war zone experience.

And when I had, at that time, I lived in New York.

So when I had left Iraq and gone back to New York, I could

not integrate into society.

I could not.

I had a lot of friends and family around me, and I was

surrounded by healthcare workers.

My whole career was around emergency medicine, and I had

friends who were in psychiatry.

But I just couldn't, I didn't feel right.

Eventually I was hospitalized, and I talk about this in my book.

So it was a very big journey for me.

And being able to write it was just amazing.

Retraumatizing at times, especially since I wanted to get a lot of

the details down properly and then doing the whole editing process.

I'm rereading all of these scenes, some of them from Mosul, where the one that sticks

out the most is there's one scene where I'm in a trauma field hospital and A woman

is screaming and her legs were blown off.

They were completely amputated and there's no pain medicine for her.

There's no sedation for her.

So there was like those kinds of memories stuck with me for a long time.

But because I suffered this I, I felt like I was doing it alone because

the NGO I was with didn't have a good system, as many NGOs don't, to be honest.

A lot of volunteers and leaders are sent into the field,

probably much like the military.

And then when you come back, you're just left okay, we'll just deal with it.

Go see a therapist if you need to.

But nobody really helps walk you through what this means.

A lot to go into, a war zone and to see traumas that you haven't seen before.

So I really wanted to write My book to share my story for anyone really,

but specifically people who, who go through trauma and to show how I

was able to deal with it and had it not been for that experience, and

learning how to go through the steps.

Gaza would have been much more difficult.

So for example, I take a lot more proactive action now.

When I leave Gaza, I know I need to find ways to decompress.

I do see a EMDR therapist, that's like a very specific trauma therapy.

I Come to places like Phuket to calm down and be away from busy places,

because it can be triggering like when you hear a lot of loud noises, even

now, if I hear, let's say fireworks or something there's going to be a part,

something's going to get triggered in you.

So in writing my book, yeah, I wrote a lot about my work, about

my time in Iraq, and how I.

unraveled and lost control when I got home and how even though I was

surrounded by a lot of people, a lot of resources, I still ended up

hospitalized because nobody could help me.

So I'm hoping that my book can help others.

I always encourage humanitarians to read it way I see it now, like a lot of people

are going into Gaza and coming out and maybe not understanding what's going on.

I see changes in people's personalities, and I do my best to support and

help but in time, everyone will deal with it in their own ways, but it

can also come out in very ugly ways.

And going into a psychiatric unit in New York City is not pleasant.

Going, I'm sure, in a lot of places is not pleasant.

Having seen it from A nurse's side, where I've taken care of psychiatric patients,

to being the patient, that, that was just also very mind blowing for me.

Yeah, I think writing is important I'm currently, I've started writing a little

bit about Gaza, this time non fiction, because I think it's so important to

share the stories, even as we talk, I know that you say there's a lot of

information, and there's some things that you might be hearing for the first time.

I feel like, It's so important for me to document what I've

witnessed and to disseminate it to as many people as possible.

Indeed.

Indeed.

This is this is, I guess this is a good place to close.

I did want to ask you something different.

It was unrelated to right now it's going back to and it's more of your opinion.

It's more, I know you're not an expert in this field, the The Convention on the

Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and it's three parts of

the question, of 1948, defines genocide as an act committed with the intent of

destroying, in whole part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group.

That's one thing, right?

Do you feel That what's taking place in Gaza right now fits the

the the category of genocide.

And the second part question I had is that, right now the only states

right now, the United States, when this conflict started, the United

States was quick to send battle groups naval battle groups there to dissuade

or intimidate any other Country to from intervening to send a message.

But right now the only state, official state that is

intervening directly is Yemen.

We have Syria, Iran.

They intervene indirectly.

And you have the Lebanese group, Hezbollah, more directly,

which is their non state actor.

All of these places, all of these states, all of these entities

are maligned here in the West.

But, given that your interaction or going into Israel, do you feel, one, for the

first question, whether you feel what's going on is a genocide, and two, is the

intervention of these entities that I mentioned, is it having an effect in

Israeli society from what you're viewing?

The first question It is absolutely a genocide, and

I'll tell you the difference, the single biggest difference from this

war zone and the other ones I've experienced, or other refugee crises,

or migrants, asylum seekers, is that the Palestinians cannot leave freely.

In a lot of other war zones, you can at least go to a different part of the

country, and yes, you're displaced, but at least you're free from the violence.

Or, in other parts like Myanmar, for example, where the genocide of the

Rohingya they've been, they had a pathway to migrate to Bangladesh, and even though

they live in the camps there, at least they're free from the violence in Myanmar.

In Gaza, you're talking about An all out war where there's no safe zone.

No matter what they say about humanitarian zone, there's no single safe zone.

Even for humanitarians inside, there's no safe zone inside

and you cannot just leave.

If you're a fisherman on the sea and you go too far out, you get shot.

I think most recently, this week, there were some fishermen who were shot.

So you can't go out by water, you can't go on the Egyptian side, you

can't go through any other border.

You are literally in this war zone without an opportunity to flee.

Civilians, the chance to leave.

And some people, let's say they choose not to, then at least that's their choice.

So that's number one.

For the second one, with all the other groups getting involved, I, it's hard to

say if it has some, for me, I'm, so I'm an American, and I think many of us know

the power of America, and because the U.

S.

backs Israel, This is going to go the way that the U.

S.

wants and Israel.

Either one or both, doesn't matter which one.

Whichever groups are involved, I don't know that enough of

them would ever challenge the U.

S., right?

I think Israel alone would be a different story.

Now the different kinds of attacks and the things like that Yemen are,

Yemen's doing with I think they were blocking some of the routes and whatnot.

Maybe it can cause the world, if it affects the world enough to care

and to speak out, because there's a lot that is happening, right?

There are all these councils, there are sanctions and there are people

saying that Netanyahu should be arrested or issuing a warrant.

But when I read these things, I try to think to myself

what does that mean though?

He, because he's not going to get arrested, right?

For the longest time, they talked about Donald Trump getting impeached, getting

arrested, like all these world leaders.

getting x, y, and z, but I don't have an answer for what the impact of All

these countries being involved with I don't know, because in the end, Israel

is getting the 3 million, 3 billion, actually 3 point billion, whatever billion

from the US and it's a constant feat.

It's not, and the US is pretty vocal about it.

They're steadfast as allies.

Maybe the election will affect something.

I don't know, because at least it's coming up in a few months.

Maybe the picture will change depending on who goes into office.

But I don't really, I don't know what I don't know if any

countries can challenge the U.

S.

and what the U.

S.

is doing to help Israel, which is essentially supporting a genocide.

Mike, you had anything, any question, Mike?

Yeah, I could, could, I could probably go for hours.

There's just a wealth of knowledge and experience that you

have that is, it's incredible.

I do activism here in Ohio and, it's just it just feels Compared to what you've

been doing we're just playing games.

We're just playing around and so I really respect what you've done in

your life work and it's a real honor to be able to sit and talk to you.

Outside of that, is it, I guess my question would be is what should

people is there just to condense it one more time, what should people

really know about what's happening in Palestine and what can we do?

People should know that there are actions that can be taken.

So that's number one.

Because when we look at it from afar, and we look at it from the

news, and it just seems like it's sad and people are dying every day.

Yes, there is a percentage, and it's a large percentage of people dying,

but there are many more who are surviving and will survive this war.

For me, it's important for the public to understand this and even for humanitarians

so we don't lose hope and that we don't also forget that, that maybe this is what

the world wants us to think, that this is a lost cause and not to pay attention.

For people who want to get involved, there, there are ways and there

I'm happy to also give out my contact information, let's say if

listeners want to follow up on it.

There are ways to get involved the simplest things are yes, you can make

your own fundraisers, you can, in contact with our staff members, like

I've Connected people who feel compelled but don't know what to do with one

of our Palestinian staff members, and it's opened up their world, similar

to like how we're speaking right now.

There are also for those who need a more concrete, let's say, project, I can give a

list of things that can be done, and then we can talk about how to actualize it or

how to continue what's still happening.

Like something from simple as you want to make an impact, but you don't know how.

You can support this teacher's salary or this doctor's salary.

And compared to the US, the salaries are very low.

Like per month, the teacher's 250 US dollars a month.

The doctor's 500 US dollars a month.

For them, that's a lot of money.

For us, it's doable.

As in, it's not, it doesn't have to be something monumental.

You don't have to raise millions of dollars.

You don't have to save the entire country.

Like we just, Take it one step at a time and do what we can, but also educate

people and bring them in like that.

Bring slowly I want to bring people in who can see also the fruits of their labor

and feel that human connection so they know who they're supporting and they know

that they're, there is hope and it's not an endless, it's not a hopeless cause.

Nina, if you can send me those links or those those

contact information we can put it on the show notes for us to see.

Okay.

You got it.

Thank you.

And thank you both.

It was so wonderful to be able to speak and hear your questions.

Thank you for being engaged.

Oh, thank you so much for the work that you're doing.

It's very important work.

And like Mike said, that, we're doing what we can here at

the at the Bell of the Beast.

But compared to what you're doing is child's play.

Thank you so much for coming and, sharing your thoughts, experience with us.

It's a pleasure having you.

I

have one more comment though.

Go ahead.

This is really important for me personally for NGOs, for

humanitarian aid workers, don't minimize what you're able to do.

So I know you're like, okay, we're, our work is child's

play compared to you, whatever.

But, especially those who have been doing this since last October, like it's

tiring and like we, we feed off of like new energy too, like we, we need support.

I was at NYU with the encampment with the students were doing the

protest and I felt the fresh energy.

I was like, Oh, thank goodness, like the younger generations are here.

They're speaking.

For, to in, in this way, where we can connect, and hopefully it will lead to

further connections, it will hopefully revitalize us, and we get a helping

hand here and there, and I, I'm very happy, too, when I see people find

a way to get involved that kind of suits and satisfies in its own way.

So it's It's just There are many possibilities, and I hope that I've been

able to explain some of it, but also what you're doing is important, because

you're now going to convey my message to an audience that I don't have access to,

and we don't know we might inspire to get involved, so thank you for your work.

Please tell us again the name of your organization.

Help me live.

SAA Help me Live usa.

You can contact that or we can get online.

We just Google and Yeah, the

Website is www.hmlusa.org and I will send you also my email contact and

I'll link you to the, our website also.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Thank you, Mike.

Any last words?

No, that's all.

Thank you very much.

It was an amazing opportunity to talk to you.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

So will.

Thank you.

Thank you all.

Thank you all for joining us today.

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